Oppos who follow sailboat racing: SailGP, what do you think?
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іди на хуй Влад - formerly known as Distraxi last edited by іди на хуй Влад - formerly known as Distraxi
I watched some races for the first time yesterday, and I'm in two minds.
On the one hand: fast, tight, spectacular - must be excellent in-person viewing. With nine 50ft boats doing 30+mph on a tight course, at times it feels like an arcade racing game. Must be incredibly stressful for the crews to keep track of all these 5 ton missiles flying around them - I'm surprised they haven't had more big accidents.
On the other hand, they've sped it up to the point where the strategy, cat-and-mouse games and suspense - the things which make slower-moving sports fulfilling to watch - have more or less all disappeared. Each race is only 15 minutes long and each leg only a couple of minutes - there's no chance for a meaningful plot to develop.
It basically feels like fast food: a quick addictive hit of fat and sugar, but ultimately unsatisfying.
What do you guys think?
<for the non-cogniscenti, SailGP is a feeder series to the America's Cup - basically Formula 3 to AmCup's Formula 1. Sailed in 50ft one-design foiling catamarans, with races held very close to shore so it can be seen close-up by land based spectators. One team per country, 6 races per race weekend, one race weekend per country>
Jagroen fan & custodian of camellids. GT86, Octavia VRS, Pajero, Leaf
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@іди-на-хуй-Влад-formerly-known-as-Distraxi You make great points. I guess the build up now is in a points and bracket system.
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@іди-на-хуй-Влад-formerly-known-as-Distraxi These boats though, are pretty insane. Deployable canards/hydrofoils? Wot.
Sailors from the 1800's would think this is black magic.
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@іди-на-хуй-Влад-formerly-known-as-Distraxi I don't know much about sail racing, but I do have a friend that's a huge America's Cup fan and has talked to me about it. I may be way off base on this, but ever since they went to these hydrofoil boats I feel that most of the "sailors" aren't sailors. Most of the people on the boat are just there to pump the hydraulics they don't really do anything that constitutes sailing.
Overall watching the video it does seem exciting, but I can your point that having some longer races could help. Who would really want to watch a Super Bowl that only lasts one quarter?
'13 Kia Optima - abject POS
'03 Malibu Response LX - 335hp 350 SBC -
Yes, I watch this series religiously. Lotta money being spent for these boats. Well prepped and excellent buoy sailors. Excellent electronics and twitchy crews these things have almost topped 100kmh! That's 62mph in less than 30 knots of wind. The pinnacle of technology. I think the more one knows about buoy racing the better this show is. The presenters try hard but can't teach the audience from the screen. One has to be a sail racer to understand much of what is going on.
Other races that interest me are the The Ocean Race https://www.theoceanrace.com/en/home , Which is teams on formerly solo 60' IMOCAs circling the world in stages. For some dumb reason they're not using the VO65s in the current stage which were made for this stuff. Sad to just have 5 boats in the race when they've have 35 in the past.
And then there's the The Golden Globe https://goldengloberace.com/ which is <40' boats sailing around the world non-stop solo with no tech better than they had in 1968. Yes, they have all the modern safety gear (GPS, SatPhones, etc.) but they can't use them except in emergency. Sextants and nav tables only. Unfortunately, the tracker only works on phones.
and a sad edition of the https://www.globe40.com/en/map-tracker/ which is IMOCA 40's sailed solo. Only 4 boats left...
Live on a 1959 Rhodes Bounty II, DD a 2001 Subabru Legacy, 1996 Gary Fischer Patagonia, 1987 Bianchi
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I watch it all the time. It's fast and furious but I agree it's missing that slow tactical build-up.
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Have you looked at Vendee Globe?
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@іди-на-хуй-Влад-formerly-known-as-Distraxi
I am disappointed that 3-on-3 match racing hasn't escaped its niche. It's a sport in which teamwork and tactics are vital.
Incidentally, my claim to having been a "college athlete" is based on match racing in sailboats.
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@bison78 Of course!
Am eagerly awaiting the start. Also the feeders like Route du Rhum and the Solitaire du Figaro series. -
@NKato The tech is pretty extreme, for sure. Though the Americas Cup foiling monohulls are even crazier - all that plus variable CofG and moment of inertia, and without the stability of three balance points.
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@FourMalibus said in Oppos who follow sailboat racing: SailGP, what do you think?:
ever since they went to these hydrofoil boats I feel that most of the "sailors" aren't sailors. Most of the people on the boat are just there to pump the hydraulics they don't really do anything that constitutes sailing.
That's been true since a long time before hydrofoil boats. The Americas Cup 12 metre class boats had larger crews than these things, and if you go back further they were even larger, and most of them were just muscle. When you boil it down, it doesn't take many more people to "sail" a big boat than a dinghy - it's still just a helm and two or three sails. The difference is just size and therefore necessary muscle. Arguably there's more actual "sailing" going on on a foil boat, because somebody has to manage the hydrofoil trimming too, which is isn't a thing when you've got a fixed keel.
Jagroen fan & custodian of camellids. GT86, Octavia VRS, Pajero, Leaf
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@іди-на-хуй-Влад-formerly-known-as-Distraxi On a non-foil boat what do you need the muscle for other than for the sails? Or is that what you're saying you need the muscle for?
So are you saying the in the transition from displacement hulls to foils the muscle basically just changed from sails to hydraulics?
'13 Kia Optima - abject POS
'03 Malibu Response LX - 335hp 350 SBC -
@FourMalibus said in Oppos who follow sailboat racing: SailGP, what do you think?:
@іди-на-хуй-Влад-formerly-known-as-Distraxi On a non-foil boat what do you need the muscle for other than for the sails? Or is that what you're saying you need the muscle for?
So are you saying the in the transition from displacement hulls to foils the muscle basically just changed from sails to hydraulics?
yeah I think that's it, but I will say these things are incredible to watch. My wife and I went to see the foiling cats in person in Bermuda 2017 and they are pretty incredible boats. The latest foiling monohulls are also just basically witchcraft compared to traditional sailboats, and I can't wait to see them compete. SailGP is fun to watch when I can, but the truth is, unlike @barnie I just can't find time to actually follow this super closely.
I followed the Volvo Ocean Race for years, saw them in Boston when they came into port there in 2011 (?) I think (?) and again, just incredible to see in person, up close.
I have often said that if I lost everything, as in job, family, etc but was somehow still alive and okay, I'd go try to get on some crazy ocean race sailing team. I would love to do it, but of course, life gets in the way of such things.
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@functionoverfashion Lemme tell ya that pro sailing is tough and boring. But to get a taste, start by beer can racing at your local club. A 6-pack will get ya on a boat. Learn how to make the boat go faster. If you stick with it, folks'll ask you to go on the longer races. Offshore weekends and such. These can be done with a family as far as you want. A lot of the lower level pros have regular jobs; they get expenses to sit in wet closes and get bounced around.
Live on a 1959 Rhodes Bounty II, DD a 2001 Subabru Legacy, 1996 Gary Fischer Patagonia, 1987 Bianchi
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They need to bail on the hydrofoils.
I is smurt.
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Well, I picture it like this; there's America's cup open ocean racing, and there are unlimited hydroplanes. And this is in between. The calculation and drama fo the slowboating to win isn't good enough for the new instant need breed of spectator. So this is really short-track yacht racing.
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@barnie said in Oppos who follow sailboat racing: SailGP, what do you think?:
@functionoverfashion Lemme tell ya that pro sailing is tough and boring. But to get a taste, start by beer can racing at your local club. A 6-pack will get ya on a boat. Learn how to make the boat go faster. If you stick with it, folks'll ask you to go on the longer races. Offshore weekends and such. These can be done with a family as far as you want. A lot of the lower level pros have regular jobs; they get expenses to sit in wet closes and get bounced around.
I have some friends who have done/do this. The boat owner needs people to race it and no everyone is always available so they always have a few guys here and there and expenses paid to go do it, as long as you give it your best. It's fun and there's usually free food and booze in the end. A good party with good people. But getting just slightly serious about it, they start having total crew weights, which is where a lot of the pro sailing deck hands are sometimes ex-college football players for the strength-to-weight ratio for cranking the "coffee grinders" and really hauling the sail changes.
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іди на хуй Влад - formerly known as Distraxi last edited by іди на хуй Влад - formerly known as Distraxi
@FourMalibus said in Oppos who follow sailboat racing: SailGP, what do you think?:
@іди-на-хуй-Влад-formerly-known-as-Distraxi On a non-foil boat what do you need the muscle for other than for the sails? Or is that what you're saying you need the muscle for?
So are you saying the in the transition from displacement hulls to foils the muscle basically just changed from sails to hydraulics?
The sails are mostly what you need the muscle for, on both foiling and non-foiling boats. The ropes which control the sails are under a lot of tension. Even on a little sailing dinghy the mainsheet probably has a 4 or 6 to 1 purchase to let you haul the thing in by hand, and on a big yacht the forces involved can be in the tens of tons. It takes a heck of a lot of power to haul the sails in when you tack or jibe, and even to make the constant fine adjustments which you do when you're racing.
@barnie will know more about this than me, but I believe once you go past a certain boat size it's all done hydraulically (albeit with muscle powered hydraulics) whether that boat is a foiler or conventional yacht - there's a limit to how big a winch you can sensibly drive just using a mechanical reduction gearbox with a handle on top.
You also need muscle power to adjust the rigging, which again is under tens of tons of tension: it's common on high performance yachts to adjust the curvature and angle of the mast "on the fly", which is done by messing with rigging tension. Again, up to a certain size you can do that with ropes and pulleys - beyond that it's hydraulic rams.
On the first few generations of foiling AC boats, lifting the foils was also done by hydraulics, which certainly added to the demand for muscle, but on the AC75s it's done by battery power: muscle powered hydraulics are only used for foil trimming, which doesn't add a lot to the existing "sailing" demands. Don't know how the SailGP boats work, but given that their crew is relatively small (5 or less), with only two dedicated grinders, I expect it's the same as the AC75.
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@Future-Next-Gen-S2000-Owner said in Oppos who follow sailboat racing: SailGP, what do you think?:
They need to bail on the hydrofoils.
Hell no, they need to foil all the things.
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@barnie said in Oppos who follow sailboat racing: SailGP, what do you think?:
@functionoverfashion Lemme tell ya that pro sailing is tough and boring. But to get a taste, start by beer can racing at your local club. A 6-pack will get ya on a boat. Learn how to make the boat go faster. If you stick with it, folks'll ask you to go on the longer races. Offshore weekends and such. These can be done with a family as far as you want. A lot of the lower level pros have regular jobs; they get expenses to sit in wet closes and get bounced around.
Haha, thanks, I'm sure it's not glamorous! I raced dinghies in college, that was a blast, but very limited scope.
I live near a small lake, there's a lightning regatta every week and I've always wanted to get involved. It's just been a matter of time, with a young family. I hope to get into that in the next few years.
