Time for a change
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First off, I've been at my job for going on 13 years now and have been in this industry for 15 years. I love what I do and I'm very good at it, but I have grown to loathe this side of the industry. I am in my early 30's and I have reached my peak within my job. I'm not learning anything new. If I can't challenge myself then I get detached and depressed.
When I first walked in that door over a decade ago I could shake the managers hand and introduce myself while turning in an application to land an interview. I've done a few more interviews since but it's been a long time. Nowadays everything is online. I have an online presence but I don't even know who im sending a cover letter or resume to. I had my first ever rejection and damn it hurt.
My question to you all that are more... current at these things or have HR experience. What is the proper way to address a cover letter to a faceless entity within a company? Any other tips and tricks I should know about?
Honda Tech | WA State
04 TSX | 95 Civic | 07 Pilot -
@thebarber I don't have any good info for you, but I'm in a similar spot, so I'm here watching the discussion.
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@thebarber I don't think it can hurt to go old school, use a formal cover letter format, and address it to "Dude(tte) in Charge of Hiring". Kidding. If you can, try to find out who is posting jobs (use LinkedIn), or just go with "Dear Hiring Manager". If I got a well written, formal cover letter and it was addressed as such I would at least give the resume a read. (Note: I'm not in HR, but since I work at a small company we all do some level of recruiting.)
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@thebarber Haven't done many applications, but I know from working at a big company that resumes/cover letters will go through some sort of automated reader that will do the first round of weeding people out. I've found it helpful to put the specific things they ask for in the job posting in the resume/cover letter, so the computer sees that and you have a better chance of making it past that round. As far as addressing a cover letter, I would just go with putting the company name/address in the top left like normal and then "To whom it may concern" or similar ambiguous greeting. Not sure how often cover letters actually get read anymore, but it doesn't hurt to still write them
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@thebarber Do you have a Linkedin page? One of the best ways to improve your chances with a job these days is to get connected with people at companies you’re looking at.
With applications being almost 100% online these days, it really pays to leverage your network and connections. That can get your applications reviewed when online ones might not even be seen by a human.
Are you familiar with ATS (applicant tracking system) technologies that companies use? Basically it reads your resumé versus the text of the application & job description and decides if it’s a good fit even before anyone sees it.
I can link some articles on networking and formatting if you’d like. Happy to answer whatever questions you have; my university actually has classes that I took on how to land jobs efficiently. Been job searching myself, so I’m glad to share what I’ve learned so far.
@ GibbsEmphasis on YouTube and IG
1991 MR2
2019 Rally Camero -
@thebarber I can't offer any advice directly as I am likewise approaching a decade out of the job market.
Iirc, @TexturedSoyProtein is an HR manager(?), and I seem to remember him writing out some advice or best practices on old Oppo so he may be well placed to chime in here.
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@way2blu +1 for LI, it's the worst ...but the industry standard every bit as important as your resume these days at least in some industries.
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@thebarber Isn’t @TexturedSoyProtein in HR or hiring of some sort? I may be misremember though...
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@thebarber said in Time for a change:
I am in my early 30's and I have reached my peak within my job. I'm not learning anything new. If I can't challenge myself then I get detached and depressed.
You cannot leave the E-4 Mafia.
#justmilitarythings
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@thebarber Do you have contacts, personal or professional, that could help you make a personal connection? I don't have direct advice on procedure. I only know that once you have the skills and resume to make a great employee, you have to them market yourself to stand out from the field, and one way to do that is through someone who already knows you to be a good and talented professional.
Curator, Kia enthusiast, dad joke specialist
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@way2blu I do have a Linkedin and I'm pretty active on it, I wasn't sure if it was considered rude to just drop a invite to random people employed at companies. Most of the people on my list are either associates or random recruiters.
I have talked to a friend of mine about ATS who handles some internal hiring at a large company. I try and put keywords from job postings into my resume to custom tailor it. I hate how much is it turns into HR fap speech and less like me but I guess if it is what I need to do to talk to a human than so be it.
I turned in my first application since 2012 last month. It was for job at a company that I was pretty stoked about and the posting matched my skills or maybe was a little below what I do. I figured it was a better path forward for me even though it might be lateral or even backwards. I did not get an interview. I've given myself until this summer to find something else within this industry because I do like working in automotive. If I can't find something by then I'll just burn my life down and find something (anything) different to do.
Honda Tech | WA State
04 TSX | 95 Civic | 07 Pilot -
@thebarber
Obviously it’s heavily industry and job dependent, but do consider a head hunter. I’m on my 4th industry, on purpose btw, as I tend to get bored as well. Jumping into O&G I needed one because they’re mostly not big on outsiders for engineering and the headhunter was my in. I did get interviews without, but with made it tons easier.I’ve never done a cover letter just a concise one page resume that I expand on over the phone or in person. I’m sure they all filter resumes but MechEs are a bit tougher to read with a resume filter IMO. I also tailor each resume to each co to highlight things that are of industry or position importance.
Awaiting TSP to tear this reply up lol.
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@thebarber Go with the old fashioned approach. Open the letter with "Dear sir or madam," or "Dear hiring manager". Follow with something like "I am a (job description) with extensive experience in (skill 1) and (skill 2).
You should have a different cover letter for each job you apply for. Each cover letter should highlight your talents in a way that makes you seem to be a perfect fit for the job you are applying to. The hiring manager will look at your cover letter for 10 seconds. If they aren't draw in immediately, you will get passed over. Don't lie or exaggerate, but do highlight what talents you have that meet the company's needs. If you have five top skills, make sure you start by mentioning the one or two that the job opening asks for.
My company gets overloaded with resumes for each new opening, and the hiring manager has little time to sort them. Applicants that tailor their resume and cover letter for the open position get reviewed faster. It at least shows that they have the attention to detail to read the job application.
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@chariotoflove That is my problem. I don't have contacts for the jobs I want. I know some people at Honda corporate and they are aware of my skills but they are not high enough to make a difference. I have the skills and the drive to fit the jobs i've been interested in. I'm an old millennial but I as my job history shows; I have that old school work ethic. I currently am the go to guy for management to be the fixer of all the things. So I have the people skills as well. I can walk into a dealership and get a job no problem. I have done it many many times just to see offers but i'm done with the retail side of things. This whole faceless hiring thing sucks.
@ForSweden I don't have history with the services but I'm pretty dang sure I can relate.
Honda Tech | WA State
04 TSX | 95 Civic | 07 Pilot -
@thebarber said in Time for a change:
This whole faceless hiring thing sucks.
I agree. You need to find a way to get personal somehow. Good luck.
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@thebarber said in Time for a change:
@way2blu I do have a Linkedin and I'm pretty active on it, I wasn't sure if it was considered rude to just drop a invite to random people employed at companies. Most of the people on my list are either associates or random recruiters.
I don't have much to add except that asking for a connection might work as long as you are honest about why you are trying to make a connection. I curate my contacts on LinkedIn more carefully than I do on other social media. The idea is that someone I'm linked to is someone I'd recommend or would be willing to hire if I were in a position to do so. If they aren't, then I don't make the connection.
I understand what you are going through. Five more months and I'll have been with this firm for 14 years. I'm trying to hold out for at least another year and a half so that my son won't have to switch schools his senior year. In 2022, I'll be looking for new work or at least a transfer to another state.
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@thebarber Look at things from the perspective of the big picture, the other side of the hiring process, and how you get where you want to be in smaller steps.
The most important aspect is to tailor your presentation to the audience, not to what you want to say. This includes first the automated resume buzzword scanner, then the recruiter, and then anybody else they send you along to. Assume that each is nothing more than a self-serving asshole that doesn't care about you and only wants to make themselves look better to the person above them. Harsh, but realistic. They may be friendly on the phone, but they're not your friends. The recruiters and other people that you won't be reporting to are merely somebody standing in your way like a troll stopping you from crossing a bridge in the forest. Treat them as such and give them what they want to get them out of the way. Also assume that they can spot somebody telling a lie from a mile away, so be honest.
At the same time, treat the process as 2-way. You want to make sure that both the company and position are a good fit for you, so ask lots of questions. Find out about company culture. Ask the other person why they like working there. Find out what expectations are. Ask about time frames and next steps in the process. Make sure that you are comfortable with the manager you will report to as they are the one that you will be working with the most.
Don't forget the math either. There are not only hundreds of unqualified people applying to every job posting, but also a significant number that are. There are also a sizable number of postings that aren't "real" postings because the hiring manager already knows who they want to hire and DGAF about all of the online applications. So, set up job alerts through the bigger boards, re-write your resume & cover letter with relevant buzzwords, and start blasting away. Don't get discouraged by rejections, as there will be lots. Both GFY emails and outright ghosting. You need to be the #1 choice out of possibly hundreds of people to get an offer, so be realistic.
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@boxer_4 @DasWauto Yes I'm the director of recruiting at my company.
@TheBarber The basic stuff here is yes, you're going to need to apply to a lot of shit online, and it's all a numbers game. Some things to keep in mind...
If you see a job posting, you're never going to know how far along in the hiring process that company is. Most places leave job postings up until the new employee starts, just in case. All you can do is throw your name in the hat and hope for the best. Do it a lot, because there are all kinds of reasons why your application never gets a response, that have nothing to do with the quality of you as a candidate.
Don't worry about cover letters unless a particular application requires one. Hardly anybody reads them. The only exception to this is if you have something meaningful and relevant to say about why you're applying and why you're a fit for the position. Like if there's something quirky about your situation that bears explaining, or you see some job posting that you're like, holy shit this is my dream job.
When you write your resume, focus on A) your responsibilities; B) any and all relevant buzzwords; C) this is the big one that not everybody thinks to include--ACCOMPLISHMENTS. So like, a sales person shouldn't & say, "my responsibility was to sell shit," they should say, "look at all this shit I sold!"
The top 3 job boards to search and apply for jobs are Indeed, LinkedIn & Glassdoor. If you're going to apply to stuff posted on LinkedIn you should make sure your profile is reasonably comprehensive. It can be very similar to your resume, that's fine. The thing is that when you apply through LinkedIn your profile often gets attached to your application so you don't want the company where you're applying to see a bare profile.
Other places that are worth looking at are ZipRecruiter, Dice (for IT stuff) and Circa (formerly known as Local Job Network). The first 2 tend to have lots of postings from smaller companies, and especially staffing agencies. So I wouldn't post your resume on them unless you want to get blown up with spammy off-target recruiters messaging every raw keyword hit on their search, but they are good places to find stuff to apply for. Just google the companies before you apply to make sure they're not staffing firms. Keep in mind that staffing firms love calling themselves anything but staffing firms, often they'll say consulting, solutions, or other vague business-y sounding crap.
To make your searching & applying as efficient as possible, I recommend as you search to open up any posting that looks potentially interesting in a new browser tab, and keep going until you have about 10-15. Read them in more detail, kick around which ones most appeal to you, and fill out those applications first. If at any point you find yourself stuck with an overly cumbersome application form, pause it and go pick one of your other open tabs to apply for.
Pro tip for how to quickly tell if the application is going to be annoying is to look at the URL because pretty much all applications are housed in commercially available recruiting software. Some are more annoying than others for candidates. If you see iCIMS, Jobvite, Greenhouse or Lever in the URL the application is likely going to be pretty easy because the default setup for applications in those is pretty slim and companies have to add individual questions. Conversely, others like Taleo & Ultipro (a.k.a. Ultimate Software) have bloated overgrown default applications that need to be streamlined by the companies that use them and many companies don't have the bandwidth to do this. There's a bajillion different of these recruiting programs but just FYI.
As you're interviewing, make sure you can explain what has you looking for a new job and be able to articulate that in a way that's not negative about your current job. What you said here about that is largely fine. Don't ever try to sell yourself. Companies if they're halfway decent at hiring will have questions to ask you. Don't make a sales pitch, focus on giving good answers. Specific examples about how you did a thing on a particular project are always the best answers. It's definitely ok to talk about how something was successful and people were happy but be careful not to spend too much time on "so-and-so told me I'm just the best worker EVER" type statements.
Also make sure that you have a list of things you need to know about any company for you to decide on a job. Work environment, responsibilities, benefits, team members, etc. I don't recommend asking open-ended questions like "what's the culture like?" because you're unlikely to get a particularly candid answer anyway. It is however good to say what you're looking for in a new opportunity and you feel like from what they're saying their job could be in line with that. Personally I ask every candidate what they're looking for in a new job, but this is not especially common among interviewers. Candidates love answering this question because more often than not they don't get asked. But even if you're not asked, talking about your wants & needs and how their job could fulfill them shows you're serious about taking an offer if it comes your way.
Lastly, don't take rejections personally. While yes, companies are saying they're not interested in you for their job, that's not saying something bad about you as a person, at least usually. Sometimes candidates are really truly whackadoo, but if a company is bothering to talk to you at all that means they at least see something that could potentially meet their needs. If after talking with you in more detail they decide you're not what they're looking for, that's all you should take it to mean.
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@looseonexit Yea I get offers from headhunters for my current role but I haven't explored actually hiring one myself. I might have to if I want to get anything other than entry level in another industry. My expectations are not super high and I fully expect to take a pay hit. I don't have a BS degree and I plan on being technician level until I decide to pursue higher education as I want to apply it to something I want to do. I have been applying pretty appropriately even though some do want some higher degree. This makes it hard to stand out.
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Get your resume and LI profile overhauled by a pro, it'll cost you ~ $500 and worth every penny. I can give you an intro to the lady that did mine. It made a huge difference.
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I've been on both sides of the hiring process and my take away is the following:
-Unless you have a career of experience, your resume should ideally only be one page. I respect someone who has taken the time to assure their resume is brief and to the point, but informative to the individual's education, experience, and capabilities. For reference, mine is two pages, includes 17years of career experience across, education and career-specific training, and career-specific references. Up until 2014, I was able to keep it to a single page.
-When showing job history and detailing the role, showcase any growth while working at a single company. If you started at a company in 2005 as a field technician, but are now the Director of Field Operations, don't just show your present role as a director, break-out each role you had and the years you held them. This not only shows your ability to grow as a person and into a role, but also the wide range of experiences you had and helps explain some historic knowledge that otherwise might not make sense to be held by the present role. It also sub-consciously tells the hiring manager that this person was deemed capable and trusted by the previous employer for such continued upward development.
-First impressions matter, both by digitally and physically. When applying online, write a catered message to the individual who will be reviewing your resume. This can come as an e-mail, cover letter, or note with your application portal submission. Also don't be afraid to re-write your resume to emphasize certain skills or past projects, if the role being applied to would relate. Every application I've ever done was slightly adjusted to either re-order or re-write experiences for a better balance to the specific job to which is being applied. -- A Software developer may be two very different roles between Google and ZenDesk for instance. When meeting in-person or via teleconference, dress for the role, don't underdress, but also don't overdress. Be sensible and you'll be alright, after all, you want to be comfortable as interviews can be awkward at the start and anything to lower stress will make it easier on you.
The big thing is don't take a job you aren't happy with, as you'll likely be back on the hunt in 6 months time. It is a terrible feeling after so many years of stability. Set goals for your expected pay, WFH or work hours flexibility, and benefits, and then start the hunt, either negotiating or moving on from the ones that don't check a sufficient number of boxes.
Reality is an illusion, the universe is a hologram, buy SAAB.
STI M1 XJ
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@texturedsoyprotein Very good tips. I think part of my problem was getting through that first job that inspired me (and I really truly wanted) and then getting rejected. I should of spent time doing a cover letter as they did include the option to add one.
Now the same company has a different position for something a little higher on the totem pole. I got rejected from the previous position and got the "I truly appreciate your interest in joining ______ and hope to keep in touch should a more suitable position open." email. Is it wise to re-apply at this company for this new position? I almost feel I was overqualified for the first one. I stalked the foreman on Linkedin and my credentials were better than his.
I've been trying to think of ways to incorporate any accomplishments. I'm in service so much of our performance information is controlled by management and isn't really open to review. Is it ok to cite department accomplishments if you were instrumental in their achievement?
I think interviewing is where I do pretty ok and I truly believe if I can get this far I will be fine. I'm very mindful about sticking to the pros of my current job and not wading into the true negative reasons why I want to move on. The last few interviews I landed and got offers on were pretty direct about asking about accomplishments and specific situations. The last one I had was actually 4 different interviews. Pre-screen, departmental, technical, and then company culture/hr. They actually did ask what I was looking for in the job and I was surprised as it seems cliche but it was the first time I was asked this. I will probably write down some questions based on company research to keep in my mind if I do land an interview. The older I get the more I've realized the importance of this part.
Honda Tech | WA State
04 TSX | 95 Civic | 07 Pilot -
@thebarber I wouldn't kick yourself over not having included a cover letter. Hardly anybody makes hiring decisions from them. The way I train managers on hiring is that the hiring process is a series of decisions. The resume & cover letter are things they should use to decide on if they're interested in that person being contacted by recruiting for a phone interview. The notes from the phone interview are what they use to decide if they want an in-person/video interview, and the interview is what they use to decide if they want to hire the person. Of course they can consider the things from the earlier decision gates in the process, but the most likely thing that happened here was that their decision not to hire you was the result of something to do with the interview, and not something that would've been changed by you including a cover letter with your application.
The email you got is likely a template. The one I use when we send rejection emails after interviews says,
Hello (Name),
Thank you for taking the time to speak with us. After much consideration, we've made the decision to not move forward at this time. That being said, we’d like to keep your resume on file as our team continues to grow. We appreciate you taking the time to get to know our team, and best of luck with your job search.
Sincerely,
(Company)
If there's a new job opening at this company that interviewed you and you feel is a better fit for you, you could definitely apply to that. Just make sure to only apply once per job opening. Some recruiting software blocks multiple applications to the same posting, others don't. In all of them you typically have one candidate profile regardless of job so if you apply to a new job opening it'll show in your profile the activity you had on the last go-round. This is fine but if you blow up the same company over and over with applications they'll see it in your profile and generally the reaction is, "this person is desperate, let's not."
If you have contact info of anyone from the company that you came about organically from your first go through the hiring process, you could reach out to them directly, but I would leave it at email. Definitely don't LinkedIn stalk, that almost always looks needy. If you have the email of someone from HR/recruiting, it wouldn't hurt to send them a quick note saying that even though they didn't select you for the last position you interviewed for, you were very impressed with their company, applied to this new job, and hope to have the opportunity to be considered. But beyond that, just apply and leave it alone.
Another thing you should keep in mind is to not get your hopes up about any particular job until you get to the interview stage, and even then, all of this shit is a total crapshoot. As easy as it is to evaluate candidates and make hiring decisions in a systematic, objective way, so many people with hiring decision-making authority don't have any formal hiring training, and even if they do, often engage in their worst instincts when making these decisions. Luckily that's not too big a problem for me in my current job with the managers I support, but that's definitely been the case in past jobs where I had to wrangle the hell out of them to keep them from doing dumbass shit all the time.
The best thing you can do for your sanity is to keep your expectations as low as possible because there are SO MANY reasons that you have absolutely no control over why you could end up not being offered a job you want. As frustrating as looking for a new job is, the fact that you're doing it while you're still employed means you have time to find the right new job, and you're not experiencing financial hardship while you do that. That's not nothing.
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@orneryduck No offense but some of this advice is just bad.
"Resumes should be one page" is outdated as hell and at this point if you give anyone that advice you're doing them a disservice.
Resumes shouldn't be longer than necessary, but they can and should be as long as they need to be to convey the candidate's relevant skills and experience. This is especially true in buzzword-heavy technical fields.
It's also impossible for someone who works in a field where a lot of the jobs are short-term temp/contract situations to have a short resume, because they keep changing jobs.
Candidates SHOULD NOT PESTER THE PEOPLE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE APPLICATION. Do not track down their email address, try to call them, message them on Linkedin, or any of that. Applying for a job gets your resume in front of the necessary people. Reaching out to them to say HEY I APPLIED TO THIS JOB PICK ME PRETTY PLEASE is desperate as hell and never works.
The only two reasons to include a cover letter are A) The application requires one; B) The candidate has something meaningful to say about themselves that's not easily conveyed in resume format.
Including unnecessary cover letters that do not provide any additional relevant details beyond what's already in the resume, but do contain platitudes about how you're so impressed with the company will not help you. It will however give managers more opportunities to find a reason why they don't want to talk to you.
In all of my experience running the hiring process, the #1 thing I have train managers out of doing is them finding reasons for piddly little shit in resumes and cover letters to become red flags. The problem is managers see something on the resume that's really more of a question mark than a red flag, but they assume the answer won't be something they like. I'm constantly having to tell managers that if they see something in a resume or cover letter that gives them pause, don't rule out the candidate because of it, figure out what questions you need to ask them to address your concern. Maybe they have a good answer, maybe they don't.
Candidates need to keep this impulse that many managers have in mind when applying to jobs. Anticipate potential red flags a manager might see in the resume, and proactively address them in the resume. For example, if someone is trying to move to another city, lots of companies immediately rule out non-local candidates who apply. Put right below your address, "relocating to (City)". Someone who has a lot of temp/contract jobs, a lot of managers still look down on what they perceive to be job hopping. So don't just show a bunch of 6-month jobs, with no additional detail, say that they were temp assignments. Stuff like that.
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@thebarber If they are inside the building you want to work in they are higher up the totem pole than the email account receiving applications. Ask one of them to turn in your resume to HR? Most companies I have worked for have had referral bonuses so it could benefit everyone.
