There's only two things that matter going forward

[MidEngine]

If you subscribe to the doctrine that the elected representatives are suposed to put the people's needs first, then the notion of human rights have to be front and center.

Health care is a right. Tying benefits to a job is ridiculous, illness doesn't care who you work for. Furthermore, it's impossible to be a contributing member of society if you're too sick to work, and no way to receive medical attention. Gotta go full Bernie on this.

Education is a right So much of the mess we're in can be directly attributed to those left behind, and many simply cannot afford post secondary education, be it specialized trades or a college degree. It's become so expensive that students are stuck with lifelong debt, or in my case, the parents shoulder the expense. Others simply have no possible way to get an education. Pissed the Boomers won't retire and allow for more opportunities for the generations that follow? Get the education monkey off their backs. Once again, education is free in many countries and the uplift is obvious.

Everything else is a very distant third in my mind. Healthy and educated populations are critical to the near term, and long term success of society.

[fintail]

@midengine Indeed. Both of those national failures (under both parties, because Murkans fear "socialism") can be directly linked to faltering economic mobility in the USA, as well. Maybe no coincidence that almost everyone in my general age demographic in metro Seattle who owns a detached house received significant parental help. Not being destroyed by medical debt or burdened with educational expenses for years helps people attain financial stability with the passage of time.

[MidEngine]

@fintail I really have no idea how many parents chip in, or own the education obligations. Seems kinda personal to ask someone.. soo, how much student debt are you saddled with? In our case we have five kids and they finished their education with no debt thanks to mom & dad. No regrets, but at 59 I'm sick of working and had we not shouldered the burden would not have to continue to put up with corporate bullshit. That's mostly me, my wife likes her job and her company, I toil away simply for the money.

As much as American's hate socialistic policies, seems pretty straightforward that being healthy and educated are the underpinnings of a successful country. I'm 100% behind that, and see SO MUCH WASTE in other government programs that are in place to satisfy a constituent base that allows the politician to be re-elected repeatedly. Re-direct, not raise taxes.

[facw]

@midengine I agree with both of these.

Healthcare should be extended to everybody. Obviously this entails other changes, since we can't afford to pay any price for healthcare. However, given that we already pay by far the most per-capita for healthcare, and our healthcare results are among the lowest in developed work (though we are excellent in some fields), it should be quite possible to provide care to everyone at much lower cost than we are paying now.

Meanwhile, I think a high-school education isn't enough anymore, and we absolutely should be funding free college (at least for public colleges), assuming the student can keep up academically. We'd of course want to steer students to more employable degrees, but I don't think that's a hard sell.

[MidEngine]

@facw Not necessarily college degrees, two of our kids followed a different route. One is an electrician, another took community college programs in Outdoor Leadership (takes troubled teens hiking for weeks at a time as part of a defined program and help them resolve their issues, mostly substance abuse), and also EMT.

Sure, you can try to steer kids to STEM and the like, but it's not for everyone. I have degrees in computer science, economics, and marketing ( I worked construction jobs to pay for my schooling back in the day). Different strokes, I don't judge what others wanna do so long as they can be self-sufficient. My support ended the day they graduated, I helped give them the skills to succeed, kicked 'em out of the nest after that. Also, moving back home is not an option for any of 'em.

[fintail]

@midengine I don't fear personal questions, and most of my lucky friends don't hold back. I can be kind of snoopy, and I also have background as a fraud analyst/examiner, so maybe I am a good guesser and know what to ask

I am in my 40s, went to school in the 90s when it was much cheaper. I worked and had loans, and paid them off relatively slowly as I consolidated and had a very low rate (for the time, something like 2.5%). It still took me a decade, when that money could have been used to put into a detached house, if mommy and daddy had been able to foot the education bill (or other expenses, I've seen a lot of "adults" out there on an allowance). That helped me not be able to get on board with the west side bubble, and learn that a cheaper condo, the only thing in my price range at the time and place, (the real estate juggernaut is against both those without family help and those with single incomes) doesn't appreciate so much. I've seen data showing it takes 10+ years to save for a down payment on typical Puget Sound area homes - and that's if you have a decent job and no bad luck or other debt. By the time you save, the market has doubled again, and you aren't on such good ground.

From what I have seen re: per capita healthcare expenditures, if that money was put into a more functional system, there wouldn't need to be new taxes - as Americans pay far more than anyone else for healthcare. The premiums paid by employers and employees alike, the deductibles and copays, are all a tax under another name.

[MasterMario]

@midengine said in There's only two things that matter going forward:

My support ended the day they graduated, I helped give them the skills to succeed, kicked 'em out of the nest after that.

This is my plan. So many people these days still rely on their parents. Besides my wife and I, there are only a few people in either of our friend groups that were entirely self sufficient after schooling. They all either lived at home for years before moving out or have wealthy parents who would do things like buy a car for them or give them the down payment for their home.

[MasterMario]

@fintail said in There's only two things that matter going forward:

The premiums paid by employers and employees alike, the deductibles and copays, are all a tax under another name.

I always bring this up when people talk about how much universal healthcare would cost. The money is already there, you're just handing to an insurance company instead of the government right now.

[Jawzx2]

@facw said in There's only two things that matter going forward:

@midengine I agree with both of these.
......
Meanwhile, I think a high-school education isn't enough anymore, and we absolutely should be funding free college (at least for public colleges), assuming the student can keep up academically. We'd of course want to steer students to more employable degrees, but I don't think that's a hard sell.

Ok, I'm gonna say a thing that a lot of people don't seem to be thinking about: It's not that a Highschool Education isn't enough, it's that a Highschool education isn't good enough.

I would argue that this is not because you have to be educated higher (see: Higher Education) but that the standards of public education (and especially funding thereof) in this country have not only failed to keep pace with the development of technology and culture, but actually fallen below the levels it was at in the 1970's and 1980's. The current emphasis on rote memorization and testing performance may indeed "level" the field between top and bottom performing students, but it also fails to tailor education to a student's strengths and abilities.

@Chariotoflove mentioned that one of the Trump policies he liked was being able to use educational savings accounts for primary education as "the best options for [his children, in his area] were private" (all paraphrased). Vocational and Technical education at the Highschool level is valuable, and valid and the rampant American belief in exceptionalism has hurt these valuable programs. Remedial classes in basic studies are common in institutions of higher education because our public secondary system is doing a crap job of providing the education every American Citizen deserves for free.

I would be much more willing to spend money on enhancing our public primary and secondary education, actually, lets call it "bringing it up to snuff" instead of enhancement, than subsidizing the administration-heavy, sports-marketing-machines that are private colleges and universities. Places that treat their adjunct staff as throw-aways and continually vote in pay increases for and enlargements of administrative personnel.

Now, you'll say "but colleges will become less relevant and many will close and people will be out of work!" Fine, I say. I am a Societal Socialist, not a Communist. The educators who loose their positions in colleges that can no longer remain competitive should be able to find employment in an expanded and enhanced public secondary education system, often with the sort of union support that's lacking in much of private education. The self-aggrandizing administrators can fuck right off. But if we have appropriate social safety nets, they can just fade away into obscurity instead of dying and/or becoming homeless. Maybe get a nice job as the manager of a Burger King.

[Jawzx2]

@fintail said in There's only two things that matter going forward:

The premiums paid by employers and employees alike, the deductibles and copays, are all a tax under another name.

THIS. SO. MUCH. THIS.

[facw]

@jawzx2 I think that's a fair take. Though I don't improving education earlier on does anything to put colleges or administrators of business.

There are certainly issues with public education at lower levels as well. I just think beyond that point, we should treat higher education in the same way we treat primary and secondary education (except that it makes even less sense to fund at a local level).

And I do think we should support vocational training for those not interested in college, and that we should offer them similar subsidies for ongoing training (or that we should have a system more geared for continuous learning throughout life in general).

[Chariotoflove]

@jawzx2

Our local education system for high school has been shit for so long. It's getting better, but for various reasons it's not the best for my daughter. Over all, our district is still failing our kids in basic education. Even though I pay private school tuition, I don't begrudge the property taxes I pay that go toward public schools. Good public education is critical to our society. I'd just feel better if they were doing more with what they get.

[Jb boin]

@facw in France, primary schools are "managed" and funded by the locality they are on, middle-schools by the département, high-schools by the région and universities at a national level.

We also have many alternatives to traditional universities, i am not sure that you have something similar ; i did a 2 year formation after graduation that was still in a high-school.

And here, most private school are in part funded by the state so they don't always cost much money, i found an article from 2016 stating that the average cost for a year in a elementary school was 366€ and 650€ in a middle-school.

[Chariotoflove]

@jb-boin When I was taking French language in high school, I learned a few things about French society. From what I remember, they had a more structured testing system that would funnel kids either toward higher academic universities or more vocational education, depending on their aptitude. Is my memory from the '80s accurate about that, and if it is, is that the way things are today?

[facw]

@jb-boin The standard higher education here is a 4-year college, but there are also two year colleges, which tend to be more vocationally oriented (though hopefully all college graduates are being prepared for some job).

Yeah private schools are not that cheap in the US. Some places give vouchers or have other methods of subsidizing it, but average private school tuition is something like $12,000 per year, and elite private schools can charge like universities, so you can end up with several times that. I was fortunate enough to grow up in places that had excellent public schools though, so my family didn't need to pay private school tuition (though they did send me to an expensive private university)

[Jawzx2]

@facw said in There's only two things that matter going forward:

Though I don't improving education earlier on does anything to put colleges or administrators of business.

the point here is they won't need higher education if their primary and secondary education is appropriate. Many institutions spend a lot of effort of remedial work, and in the end their "bachelors" degrees are equivalent, or even inferior to a "traditional" associates program. This will inevitably lead to the collapse of less competitive private institutions.

[facw]

@jawzx2 I think there are a lot of jobs where you do need higher education, even with excellent primary and secondary education. Not all of them to be sure, but even an excellent high school provides only a small fraction of what you need for most STEM careers. There are of course alternate ways to get that education, but it's not clear that any of them are any more cost effective for most people.

[Jawzx2]

@facw said in There's only two things that matter going forward:

@jawzx2 I think there are a lot of jobs where you do need higher education, even with excellent primary and secondary education. Not all of them to be sure, but even an excellent high school provides only a small fraction of what you need for most STEM careers. There are of course alternate ways to get that education, but it's not clear that any of them are any more cost effective for most people.

Certainly, and the people who follow careers and paths that require tertiary education and specialization will continue to attend appropriate and competitive institutions of higher learning. Meanwhile, we reduce the number of underemployed college graduates with unnecessary debt incurred from the false (though not entirely false, because of the shit state of public education) notion that a college degree is required for everyone.

Being a shift manager at McDonalds might not be everyone's dream career path, but it's a whole lot more palatable if you aren't also paying off a four year degree that because of its uncompetitiveness was only good enough to get you a managerial position at McDonalds. As much as I sympathize with those struggling under the debt incurred by attending higher education (I lived like a college kid -broke-ass-style- for ten years after graduation to pay off my debt), maybe, just maybe the institutions of Higher Education have a vested interest in everyone attending them, when they shouldn't have to.

[Jb boin]

@chariotoflove yes but it's evolving and i haven't been following much since i have been out of school more than 10 years ago and there has been important changes last year.

We have, starting in middle-school, some "professional" specific curriculum but most of the branching starts in high-school where you can do either a normal high-school with multiple branches (some are "general" and some "technological" but that are all ending by a traditional baccalaureate graduation) but you can also choose specific "professional", "defense", "fashion" or "agricultural" high-schools that does not lead to a baccalaureate, they can be for example for craftsmanship, mechanic or industry specific diplomas and are usually part-time working as an intern on a company.

The most common path to go to university is to do a "general" or "technological" baccalaureate that has a "standard" first year with two optional studies (one being "general" and the other "technological"), then for the two last years you have to choose 3 specialties and can choose an optional 4th (common teaching is different between "general" and "technological" branches as well as the specialty choices).

---

The typical higer education here are the European standard that we call "Licence-Master-Doctorat", it's 3 years for a License then 2 additional years for a Master then 3 additional years for a Doctorat (to become a... doctor).

With Erasmus we can go study on another country part of the program quite easily.

[Chariotoflove]

@jb-boin Wow, that's a lot of choice. Do you have relative freedom to switch between paths according to your interests, or does it get hard to change once you start down one direction?

[MidEngine]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CEGEP This program in Quebec, Canada has been around forever (hell I attended CEGEP and Ima old), it's surprising how much it covers free. You can take a three year course and be a Registered Nurse for instance - no tuition.

A snippet:

Most, but not all colleges offer two types of programs: pre-university and technical. The pre-university programs take two years to complete, whereas the technical programs take three. These programs share a core curriculum, consisting of French, English, Humanities, Physical Education and complementary courses (elective courses unrelated to the program of study).

Pre-university program
A pre-university program is two years long. It covers both the subject matter that roughly corresponds to the additional year of high school common elsewhere in Canada and the courses corresponding to those taken in first-year university in preparation for a chosen field in university (Sciences, Humanities, Commerce or Arts). Upon the completion of studies, the provincial government issues a Diploma of College Studies (DCS), or DEC (Diplôme d'études collégiales).

Students are then prepared to complete certain undergraduate programs at a Quebec university in 3 years, as opposed to 4 years outside Quebec. Students with a DEC who choose to attend university in another province in Canada or outside the country are eligible to either skip the first year and enter university as a second year student, or gain advanced standing or extra credit for their first year. The amount of extra credit accepted is at the discretion of each university. In practice, most universities do accept Quebec college credits, but only up to one year, given the difference in structure of education systems between Quebec and the rest of the provinces.

Technical program
Quebec colleges also offer three-year technical programs for students who wish to pursue a skilled trade.[5] Unlike the pre-university programs, these are not preparation for university, although this does not prevent a student from attending a university afterwards. The technical programs also lead to a DEC. Examples of such technical programs are Industrial Electronics, Architectural Technology, Nursing, Building Engineering Technology, Computer Science, and Theatre. Though those programs can also lead to the university, they are geared towards immediate employment after completion.

Adult continuing education programs are also offered at colleges. Many of those programs lead to a college certificate (Attestation of College Studies (ACS),[10] (in French): Attestation d'études collégiales—AEC), which is similar to a DEC but does not include the core curriculum. This certificate is delivered by a college's continuing education department, while a diploma is issued by the Ministry of Education, Recreation, and Sport of Quebec (later renamed The Ministry of Education and Higher Education, Ministère de l'Éducation et de l'Enseignement Supérieur in French).

In addition, the majority of the province's thirty-one "Technology Transfer Centres" have been established by CEGEPs. At these centres, applied research is carried out in a specific field in cooperation with industrial partners.

[Jb boin]

@chariotoflove said in There's only two things that matter going forward:

@jb-boin Wow, that's a lot of choice. Do you have relative freedom to switch between paths according to your interests, or does it get hard to change once you start down one direction?

If it's only swapping specialties it can probably be done but to switch to a whole other branch, if it's only after a few weeks it might still be possible but if longer you might have to start from the beginning.

If you are interested in the different branches and options and understand enough the French (or if Google Translate works well enough), they are listed on this Wikipedia page.

[Chariotoflove]

@jb-boin Thanks!

[SmugAardvark]

@midengine Like you and others have mentioned here, post-high school education should be considered a right. And there's a way to do it based on merits and aptitude. Finish near the top of your class, and you have as many options as you like as far as public universities go. Finish in the middle, and you get to go to a city college or community college first, followed by a nearby public university. Finish near the bottom, you go to a trade school of some sort.

Of course, if your family is abundantly wealthy, you can just keep shoveling money into the ivy league school of your choice until they print you out a degree that won't matter because of your mom or dad's connections in the business or political world.

[fintail]

@mastermario The parentally sourced down payment is like a way of life in the Seattle area (and many other expensive markets as well, for sure).

I don't hold it against people who have such luck, just please don't talk about bootstraps.