Some closing thoughts on the mess we're in
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I've had enough back and forth discussions with @DipodomysDeserti and @Chariotoflove that I feel like I've failed to communicate well, and I'd like to remedy that.
So I think I need to be more clear about my concerns with Trump.
I don't particularly like his policies, but other than his abandonment of allies like the Kurds (and the way he threw NATO under the Russian bus during the 2016 election) (ok, and the migrant/immigration disasters) I don't know that they were particularly egregious.
Even his failure to lead on COVID is "just" a humanitarian disaster, not a structural one.
What matters most about him is not his policies but his ongoing destruction of political and social norms.
He started setting up this crisis years ago:
- Politicizing the Justice Department
- Turning the GOP base against any news media that dared to post unflattering news
- Encouraging a cult of personality
- Encouraging white supremacists
- Encouraging violence against protestors and journalists
- Lying for years about the 2016 election (the 3 million votes by illegal aliens, the "biggest inauguration ever")
- Lying about the 2020 election "landslide" he supposedly won
And those are just examples off the top of my head.
His policies are frustrating but not, in the main, destructive to democracy. Destructive to our standing in the world, perhaps, but not a threat to our republic as an institution.
His demagoguery is destructive. Demonstrably so, in the form of this insurrection.
That's what this impeachment is about, that's where the corrective actions need to be taken.
Steve Jobs reportedly told Rupert Murdoch years ago that it was no longer liberal vs conservative, but constructive vs destructive, and that Murdoch's empire was solidly on the side of destruction.
Trump is as well, and we're years overdue to try to start correcting that.
I don't want to kick his supporters out of the political process. I want them to understand that they've been lied to and that Trump's normalization of destruction is not what the country is about.
I don't know how to get there, because the GOP leadership is patently unable to set aside their fear of Trump and his supporters, and with rare exception the media outlets that enabled his destruction are standing by him.
Anyway, I'm done for a bit for real this time, because I'm just too sad and tired and ultimately nothing I do here will make a difference in the outcome.
On walkabout. Back soonish.
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@just-jeepin My advice, let it go. You will not change the hearts and minds of certain people. I'm not saying they are wrong and you're right, but their lives and experiences differ from yours and you have no way to change that. It's like in Good Will Hunting when Robin Williams character said that he can read all the books on being an orphan but that doesn't mean that he can claim to be one. To you and I, Trump is the manifestation of what's wrong with this country on a macro level. To many Rs, he is considered an anomaly. You can post all the links you want and present facts that support your opinion. But you are a guy we know on the internet and until they have an intimate understanding of what your are presenting, they will not see eye to eye with you. I hope you keep on posting but don't try to change anyone's mind, that is up to them.
What we obtain too cheaply we esteem too lightly.
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@just-jeepin said in Some closing thoughts on the mess we're in:
no longer liberal vs conservative, but constructive vs destructive
This is the main reason I can't and won't vote for any current GOP member. The party does not seem interested in making things better. I've said it in other posts, but my position as a voter is that there are things I want to see happen (like universal healthcare or environmental protection to name a couple) and there are conservative and liberal methods to achieving these. The current GOP does not seem interested in achieving any of these goals, so I inevitably vote Democrat.
My take on the current GOP is their policy position is essentially, "No, we can't do that." They aren't offering any solutions, only roadblocks.
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@mastermario When I voted I took into consideration the current Republicans in office that did NOTHING to reign him in, and stand up for what's right. The new candidates hooking their wagon to his platform were every bit as much enablers as those who were incumbents. In 2019 voting that didn't leave any Republicans worth voting for regardless of their policies. I do not subscribe to the Democratic policies whatsoever, but decency will win regardless.
We have three buckets of people: Democrats, good & decent Republican's, and Trump loyalists. Going forward the elected (or wannabes) GOP representatives have a choice whether they want to be sheep led by the nose by Trump's base, or be good & decent people. It's really that simple.
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@krustywantout Yep, voice your opinion to let off steam, but don't expect to lead a revolt. Cults are hard to break, and this is 100% a cult.
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@mastermario I'd like to know 5 things the (thankfully) outgoing regime did right. Pandemic response is negligent at best, no replacement for Obamacare, tax plan that just makes deficits and funds stock buybacks, embarrassment on the world stage, rampant cronyism and nepotism, racist and white supremacist dogwhistles around every corner. I suppose no new wars? So much winning!
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Okay, I wasn’t going to engage in this anymore, because I too am exhausted. I feel like I’m posing in the wind a lot of the time. But you @‘d me, so I’m going to give this a go in kind.
First, I want to start with our common ground. Although I do think he had policy accomplishments in his term of which he can be proud, he has overshadowed it all with his irrationally bad behavior. So many times, when he steps to a podium, I hold my breath that he won’t say something stupid, and I usually end up cringing at the things he says, because he makes himself look like an idiot, and by extension, reflects badly on our institutions.
Now here is where we start to part ways. I don’t see Donald Trump’s antics or efforts as particularly damaging to our institutions. This is because I believe in their exceptional solidity. That solidity stems from the loyalty of our people to the country as both an entity and an ideal, not to a person. That’s why I get upset when people around me call these events “unprecedented” and “damaging to our democracy”. One person even wrote to me that Donald Trump was an existential threat to our democracy. I get angry because those are dumb statements. Our nation has weathered far worse, and no one man, no matter how charismatic he may be to some or what office he holds will bring it down. To me, that’s absurd and insulting. It’s also egotistical in the extreme to believe that our times since we have been on the political scene are the most important and pivotal in history.
I want to draw an analogy to post WWI Germany and the Weimar Republic. That fledgling democracy was young and fragile and unfamiliar to a nation of people not accustomed to that kind of democracy. That government did not have the personal investment and pride in it that most Americans have inculcated from birth. One man was able to get elected to power, and then systematically over several years dismantled the institutions around him to remake the government into what he wanted. We are not that fragile. You saw that in the current events. When even a small action against our institutions happened, it wasn’t able to stop us for even a day. Plus, all the main allies of the President and all the set up you mentioned that he put in place over the last four years came crashing down. This should hearten all of us, not dishearten! Have some faith, faith grounded in history!
Now, I want to continue my analogy to illustrate another concept. Why was Hitler able to rise to become Chancellor and then deconstruct the Republic around him? It was because he was able to incite and rally large numbers of people into a following, a following with paramilitary features that grew too big. He was only able to do that because of the climate at the time. Germans were war-weary and beaten down. Their economy was a shambles. They were pressed hard by Allied insistence not only of reparations but of retribution. They were frustrated and angry. They were receptive.
Now take that and look at where we are now and how we’ve been building to this point and see how a group of people became incited to storm the Capitol. We’re they all crackpots and revolutionaries? Of course not. What they were though was the extreme manifestation of a large ground swell of citizens who are angry and frustrated and feel like their needs are being ignored. So what do you do to solve the problem? I’ll tell you what you do not do. You do not attempt to crush them by symbolically crushing their leaders and then ignore their concerns. That is only going to make it worse. That has never worked in history, and it won’t work here. Every time one party wins the upper hand, it uses its position to steam roll the other, and then it backfires and the same happens the other way. Meanwhile, huge numbers of people sit by feeling disaffected, disgusted, and despairing that their leaders will actually govern on their behalf.
So what do you do here? Well, don’t help Trump style himself as a martyr by trying to crush him and then say job done and go back to business as usual bickering. You make him irrelevant. You do that by showing the nation that you are recommitted to bi partisan governance in the true spirit of democracy. Congressional and party leaders have an opportunity here to say “hey, none of wanted to get where we are now, but we learned a hard lesson, and we are going to move forward together to get past it.” Trump is impeached. Great. Now, let’s stop focusing on him and giving him energy and attention. He’s not going to jail no matter what. If they think they need to proceed with a conviction just to keep him from public office in the future, then fine, do it. But DO IT TOGETHER. Pelosi, Reid, McConnell, etc. should all get together and decide how to play this out to best sideline Trump for good without inciting more partisan fighting. Do not insist that GOP party leadership all fall on their swords and pay for past sins. Get them to come together with Ds to make Trump irrelevant and put him in the rear view mirror.
This is what I would like to see happen, but I suspect it won’t. I don’t see anyone involved looking past punishment, retribution, and reparation at this point.
Curator, Kia enthusiast, dad joke specialist
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@chariotoflove said in Some closing thoughts on the mess we're in:
Although I do think he had policy accomplishments in his term of which he can be proud
I am legitimately curious what you think those are. I can think of a couple policy directions that were correct, but implementation and execution were hardly anything to be proud about.
I think he had the right stance on China. We have been far to lenient and accommodating, but the only things he really did were tariffs that seemed to hurt our economy more than the Chinese.
I think he had the right idea on lowering taxes for the middle class, but most of it went to corporations instead and the tax cuts for the middle class are not even permanent (while the corporate ones are).
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@chariotoflove Not looking to engage, but I don't see impeachment as punishment, retribution, or reparation. It is simply ensuring that the menace can't run for office again.
State AGs can (and we can all hope they will) handle the punishment.
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@just-jeepin said in Some closing thoughts on the mess we're in:
Steve Jobs reportedly told Rupert Murdoch years ago that it was no longer liberal vs conservative, but constructive vs destructive, and that Murdoch's empire was solidly on the side of destruction.
Yeah, those Chinese Apple factories are really doing a good job of elevating and building up humanity. These people are so full of shit it's funny sometimes.
As for your actual point, I agree, but I think the extent to which Trump is functionally different in the big scheme of things to be a bit overblown. Our treatment of the Kurds is a good example of this. We've been screwing them over long before Trump showed up, but no one gave a shit when our past leaders did it.
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@mastermario I find it funny that 45 claims to be against China, but the Kushner organized crime family is 100% on board with selling residency to CCP kleptocrats:
https://money.cnn.com/2017/05/06/news/jared-kushner-nicole-family-event/index.html
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@chariotoflove said in Some closing thoughts on the mess we're in:
But DO IT TOGETHER. Pelosi, Reid, McConnell, etc. should all get together and decide how to play this out to best sideline Trump for good without inciting more partisan fighting. Do not insist that GOP party leadership all fall on their swords and pay for past sins. Get them to come together with Ds to make Trump irrelevant and put him in the rear view mirror.
This is a great sentiment, but I get the feeling that Dems are done reaching out.
Unless the Republicans involved can acknowledge their part in everything that happened, and then actually start working to meet in the middle, the whole "Work together" ideal is not going to happen.
It sure as hell isn't going to work when any Democratic plan is shut down without discussion because it's "Socialist".
'84 Mustang GT Convertible 5 speed
'21 Challenger R/T 6 Speed -
@fintail I think impeachment and conviction in itself can be used to attain that goal, sure. What I was worried about and have talked about before is that it not become a cudgel to beat at the Republican party, not to humiliate its leaders and demand their public penance. That would cause the divide to widen, and that's not worth it.
Curator, Kia enthusiast, dad joke specialist
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@mastermario said in Some closing thoughts on the mess we're in:
@chariotoflove said in Some closing thoughts on the mess we're in:
Although I do think he had policy accomplishments in his term of which he can be proud
I am legitimately curious what you think those are. I can think of a couple policy directions that were correct, but implementation and execution were hardly anything to be proud about.
I think he had the right stance on China. We have been far to lenient and accommodating, but the only things he really did were tariffs that seemed to hurt our economy more than the Chinese.
I think he had the right idea on lowering taxes for the middle class, but most of it went to corporations instead and the tax cuts for the middle class are not even permanent (while the corporate ones are).
You are the first person I can think of in all this time that has asked me that. So here it is in general.
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I liked that Trump brought a hard-nosed deal making attitude to dealing with not only China, but also our traditional allies. His individual tariff threats were clumsy and confrontational. I didn't like his style at all, but I liked the business-like attitude that your business partners are your friends, but that you don't let them walk over you just to keep them liking you.
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He did something that worked for me personally very well for education. His administration allowed me to use the tax-protected 529 funding mechanism to pay for secondary school as well as college. I am in a situation where the best education by far for my child is coming from a private school that is hurting my wallet, and this move is making a big difference in my ability to get her a quality education while still being able to pay for college when she's ready. That was a bit of financial pragmatism that I didn't see anyone else offering in the education debate.
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I like the idea of lowering taxes. I don't believe in telling people, "here, you guys get to keep your hard earned money, but you guys over here, you have too much for my taste, so we're not letting you keep it". So I don't get too bent out of shape over "tax breaks for the rich".
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He nominated lots of good, conservative judges to federal courts. I am a big proponent of conservative judiciary. I believe that if a law isn't doing what we want it to do anymore, then we get a legislature to change or remove it. I do not like at all the tendency for some judges to re-interpret statues for what they see as modern contexts. That's not their job.
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I especially liked his Supreme Court picks. They are really well qualified and decent people with even temperaments that will faithfully interpret the Constitution in the context of its original intent. I am an originalist in that sense for the same reason that I detailed above. I am also a devout Catholic and a professional scientist who knows that science is real, so I am very much pro-life, and I have the greatest hope since I have been alive that there is finally a chance to extend rational 14th Amendment protection to unborn children. In my heart of hearts, I pray that we can do right by women with unplanned pregnancies by helping them through a difficult time rather than tell them to just go get an abortion.
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He finally got a North American trade deal pushed through that is generally judged as a policy victory. I think this was the pinnacle of his deal-making ethos.
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I liked that he bought certified preowned for the new Air Force One planes. Besides being jalop, it also showed symbolically that he cared about not wasting tax money when it could be avoided. I wish his proposed economic policies had carried that theme generally, but I've lost almost all hope of fiscal conservatism in federal government anyway.
Curator, Kia enthusiast, dad joke specialist
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@cobrajoe said in Some closing thoughts on the mess we're in:
Unless the Republicans involved can acknowledge their part in everything that happened,
I think you got as much as you can hope for in that arena already. You had McConnell, Graham, and Pence notably stand up for democracy and publicly disavow Trump's assertions of the illegitimacy of the election. Asking for more than that is expecting them to commit political seppuku. I have a hard time seeing that happening, and holding out for it risks sinking any collaborative efforts moving forward.
Curator, Kia enthusiast, dad joke specialist
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@chariotoflove said in Some closing thoughts on the mess we're in:
Asking for more than that is expecting them to commit political seppuku. I have a hard time seeing that happening, and holding out for it risks sinking any collaborative efforts moving forward.
Even if that was enough of an apology, it's still only part of the situation blocking the two parties from working together.
There is still the problem of shutting down discussions before they become discussions.
I know Democrats (especially progressive ones) can reach for extreme changes to try and solve problems, but it isn't helpful to remain entrenched in the "That won't work, so we'll change nothing!" mindset either.
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@mastermario said in Some closing thoughts on the mess we're in:
The party does not seem interested in making things better. I've said it in other posts, but my position as a voter is that there are things I want to see happen (like universal healthcare or environmental protection to name a couple) and there are conservative and liberal methods to achieving these.
I think this statement contains a key point. Yes, there are conservative and liberal way to accomplish a goal, and reconciling them is one form of compromise. However, there is often a deeper issue of disagreement about a goal. Let's use healthcare as an illustration. Liberals will say they want universal healthcare provided by or paid for by the government. Conservatives will say they too want people to be healthy and have access to good healthcare, but providing it was never intended to be and should not be the federal government's job. That's something that should be left to state governments if they choose to do it at all. That's a much wider policy chasm and a different sort of policy compromise is required. There are still ways to come to some legislative common ground even on that subject, but until some is found, it looks very much on the surface like one side wants to do something and the other side just wants to block it.
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@chariotoflove I already addressed how I feel about China and taxes, right direction, bad implementation.
I think this theme basically carries throughout his presidency (and his private life)...I don't know how anyone sees him as a successful businessman. Well known business man? Sure. Successful? That's a very debatable point.
I will add to my take on taxes. I have no problem with lowering taxes when it makes sense, but we also need to completely overhaul our tax structure. Too many loop holes and not enough enforcement. The rich do NOT pay enough, they do not exist in a vacuum. Without the support and opportunities afforded to them by our society they would not be in the place they are today. So I don't view it as "punishing success", it's more like giving back to where that success came from. And that's a big assumption that many of the rich today "earned" it.
While I disagree with abortion, I don't think it's the government's business to be getting into religious discussions as to "when life begins". I think there should be some restrictions as to how late an abortion can be performed, but taking a strictly pro-life stance just feels like letting religion dictate policy which goes against what our country supposedly stands for. Though it's not like that hasn't happened in the past.
I do think NAFTA 2.0 is a win. Kind of forgot about that one.
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@mastermario said in Some closing thoughts on the mess we're in:
@chariotoflove
I will add to my take on taxes. I have no problem with lowering taxes when it makes sense, but we also need to completely overhaul our tax structure. Too many loop holes and not enough enforcement. The rich do NOT pay enough, they do not exist in a vacuum. Without the support and opportunities afforded to them by our society they would not be in the place they are today. So I don't view it as "punishing success", it's more like giving back to where that success came from. And that's a big assumption that many of the rich today "earned" it.Tax policy is something folks can debate forever, but most, including me, think the tax code is a mess.
While I disagree with abortion, I don't think it's the government's business to be getting into religious discussions as to "when life begins". I think there should be some restrictions as to how late an abortion can be performed, but taking a strictly pro-life stance just feels like letting religion dictate policy which goes against what our country supposedly stands for. Though it's not like that hasn't happened in the past.
The important point to make is that when life begins is not religion. It is science. Hard scientific fact. Most people don't realize that even the original Roe v. Wade decision recognizes that. What is debated is whether or not the unborn human should have any rights. The only place religion comes into the discussion is when a person has a soul and if that soul is a defining feature of the being's humanity.
Curator, Kia enthusiast, dad joke specialist
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He did really hurt not only the US democracy but also the US society, with the help of some of the GOP.
He proved that in America, it's easier to win if you are bullying others, not respecting the rules, laws, fact or common decency (those things are for loosers).
That you can get away with almost anything as long as you have money, speak louder, have less scruples and the right position or friends in the right places.
That it's acceptable to publicly mock others for their origins, for being captured during war or that you were a lesser person for not going to a prestigious university.Those things are more problematic and more important than the congress debacle itself : How can you teach your kids or students that they should not do these things when the president himself is doing them without showing any remorse, restraint or any kind of backlash from his allies.
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@jb-boin I do think his personal behavior brought down standards of public debate that were already pretty bad. I hope we can improve those standards from here on out. I used to watch the British House of Commons where MPs would heckle each other while speakers tried to get their jabs from the podium. I was appalled at the behavior. The way Trump would speak about people sometimes got worse.
Curator, Kia enthusiast, dad joke specialist
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@mastermario abortion should have nothing to do with religion : if you are religious and don't want to abort, then don't do it but don't force other to keep the child because of your own beliefs.
About how late it's allowed it is also because it would be more dangerous for the mother after a certain delay and probably also harder psychologically.
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@chariotoflove said in Some closing thoughts on the mess we're in:
The important point to make is that when life begins is not religion. It is science. Hard scientific fact. Most people don't realize that even the original Roe v. Wade decision recognizes that. What is debated is whether or not the unborn human should have any rights. The only place religion comes into the discussion is when a person has a soul and if that soul is a defining feature of the being's humanity.
Basically another point people could discuss forever. Personally, I think the compromise is no abortions after the fetus is viable outside the womb. Up until that point, it really isn't a separate being.
And replying to your comment on healthcare. I think healthcare should be guaranteed by the government. I would argue being healthy is an important part of the "pursuit of happiness". Plus, this country was founded at a time when healthcare was still rather barbaric. Maybe you're already aware, but Singapore is a great example of a kind of free market/government subsidized hybrid for universal coverage. I'm sure there are other ideas out there too that align more with conservative ideology.
Also, the environment is huge issue for me personally. I think we are headed to a global catastrophe. It's not "the end of the world", but we will see significant disruptions leading to conflict over resources. The rich, powerful countries like the US will bear it better than most, but the world in general will be a worse place. Like it or not, climate change is a national security issue. Going green not only gives us independence from oil and the oil market it also will distribute our grid and make it more resilient to attack. Republican's don't want to do anything as far as I can tell to accelerate fixing this issue.
I am far from being a true liberal, but I have been so disgusted and disenchanted with the GOP I can't bring myself to vote for them until I see meaningful action.
