The danger our representatives are in
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Sobering. Trump has absolutely devastated civil society.
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/11/lawmakers-fear-violence-captiol-riots-457868
Update: Another link too. Yes, it was a coup attempt.
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/01/11/capitol-riot-self-coup-trump-fiona-hill-457549
On walkabout. Back soonish.
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@just-jeepin Something to think about there. There will be no quickly going back to how things were before 45's attempted coup The capitol will (needs to be) fortified and guarded from here on out - the wackos aren't going to just simmer down in a few months. 15K guardsmen ready to go for the inauguration. What a society. And of course loathsome Chad Wolf is fleeing the scene.
Another fun development - y'all Qaeda is expected to be at every state capitol as well:
https://news.yahoo.com/fbi-reportedly-warns-planned-armed-210505126.html
Which states might see an attempted insurrection? I mean patriotic demonstration of brave people exercising their rights.
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This could have ended after the 2017 mass assassination attempt, but populists gonna populist.
Down the slippery slope we go.
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Romney got harassed on his flight the day of, Graham the day after was surrounded in the airport and harassed. I get they feeling that the veil of safety via relative anonymity is gone. Green is from TX and I couldn’t pick him out of a crowd to save my life.
Of course the problem is the calls are coming from inside the House - literally...
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@looseonexit From inside the house, indeed:
Those safeguarding the building are going to need significant vetting.
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@just-jeepin I really fucking hope all the hopped up assholes and the increased security all over the country doesn't result in mass casualties. I can't believe more people weren't shot last week
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It’s very concerning /Collins. But really it is. WAPO reported the USSS was looking into a female agent because her FB posts. They already shifted Biden’s detail around because of concerns and were looking at the issue of Trumpists in the ranks. There’s also a report of a Ft Bragg PsyOps Officer that took a large group of people to Washington.
It was obvious there were people out to do a minimum of hostage taking and considering the MI near-incident, hostages were really not going to happen IMO... There is video out there with small unit sized group(s) kitted out the same that were closely working together which either says a lot about militia capabilities or opens Pandora’s box of rogue .mil operators. Or both...
And then of course possible foreign actors...
Aside from the people falling for the Q crap, the infiltration of the police and military by white power and militia folks is an enormous problem. There’s a lot of house cleaning to be done.
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@looseonexit
I am shocked that so many otherwise reasonably intelligent people fall for that shit, but maybe I shouldn't be - history is rhyming again. There's definitely reason to have some fear, as you say, the MI threats alone, and how some of the insurrectionists last week were equipped - this wasn't a protest, it wasn't a riot.Oh look, another Russia-based propaganda name paling around with people who support 45, what a coincidence! Reminds me of Cohen hanging out with similar types.
IIRC the FBI warned that praetorian ranks were being infiltrated by white supremacist trash eons ago, and it seems nobody did much about it. Now we may be paying for it.
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@just-jeepin another lesson in "words matter". As long as Trump and others are up there in the public eye spouting outright lies they will incite others to anger and then violence.
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I don’t think that sensationalist Politico opinion piece is any kind of rational analysis. It’s a blatantly biased piece that reframes events to support its predetermined narrative. Trump’s action was a desperate and at the end reckless attempt to stay in office, but it was a bid to remain the legitimate office holder, not a coup. Those misguided folks who stormed the Capitol were not attempting to wrest control of the government for their leader, they thought they were intervening to salvage the machinery of democracy. They thought they were acting to save it, not overturn it. They didn’t want the election results thrown out, they wanted Congress to hold off until what they thought the true election results were could be counted.
We did not have an insurrection or rebellion. What we saw was zealous desperation from a person who is suffering mental disease and tapped in to the equally desperate feelings of disenfranchisement from a fringe element of misguided individuals.
ETA: JJ, I’m not saying any of this to trigger you or anyone else. i just truly think that going down this path of talking about insurrection and such is bad for all of us. I truly feel it’s putting us in a bad frame of mind because it is prompting us to overreact in directions that are a bad idea. I continue to think that this president’s demagoguery will fade quickly once he is out of the White House, and that our democracy is in no danger from him or his crew.
I do think that the feelings of the many followers he has should not just be dismissed as the raving of cranks (despite the presence of extreme cranks in the group) because they are a manifestation of a deep seated and worsening problem in our political debate. If they weren’t receptive to the message Trump brought them, he would not have been able to incite them.
Curator, Kia enthusiast, dad joke specialist
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@chariotoflove Trump has been laying the groundwork for a year now: https://www.justsecurity.org/74138/incitement-timeline-year-of-trumps-actions-leading-to-the-attack-on-the-capitol/
My thoughts on why things weren't worse: https://opposite-lock.com/topic/4804/plausible-deniability-a-curse-and-a-blessing-updated/
And what people were saying on Parler: https://opposite-lock.com/topic/4827/don-t-call-them-protestors
There have been recounts. They don't want a recount, they want the election overturned. And there were definitely people in the mob who were willing to kill to get that done.
I don't see any reason not to call this a (self)coup or insurrection.
On walkabout. Back soonish.
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@chariotoflove said in The danger our representatives are in:
Trump’s action was a desperate and at the end reckless attempt to stay in office, but it was a bid to remain the legitimate office holder, not a coup.
Isn't that statement purely based on whose POV you're taking? I'm sure many terrorists have had similar positions in the past.
They thought they were acting to save it, not overturn it.
How exactly was this expected to work? Please - type it out for me, I'm genuinely curious.
Question for you - what action should be taken against Trump? Perhaps we can agree that the terrorists who stormed the capitol were horribly misguided individuals. What excuse does the President have in everything he said and did in the run up to these events, and his words and inaction since. He is still claiming that his speech last week was perfect and he did nothing wrong. Remember - this is the guy who watched this attack happen and told these people he loves them.
I am happy to entertain your conservative principles any day of the week, but this has nothing to do with conservatism and everything to do with a dangerous and unhinged president pushing his nutjob base to do nutjob things.
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@just-jeepin said in The danger our representatives are in:
Indeed, The events last week seem to meet every legal definition of insurrection that I have seen.
It doesn't matter if those people were misguided, it matters what they said and did. Plenty of legitimate criminals are misguided, that doesn't lessen their intent or actions. Far right leadership, up to and including POTUS, encouraged and instigated the chaos. There were cries to kill political figures. Intruders were armed. The building was sullied by the confederate flag of treason. This was not some kind of demonstration or even riot. Election results were deemed valid even by authorities chosen by rightist elected officials - just because you lose doesn't give you a right to keep asking for a recount when you are unable to produce substantive data supporting your case. Aside from being insurrectionists, those invading the capitol are sore losers.
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@just-jeepin said in The danger our representatives are in:
@chariotoflove Trump has been laying the groundwork for a year now: https://www.justsecurity.org/74138/incitement-timeline-year-of-trumps-actions-leading-to-the-attack-on-the-capitol/
My thoughts on why things weren't worse: https://opposite-lock.com/topic/4804/plausible-deniability-a-curse-and-a-blessing-updated/
And what people were saying on Parler: https://opposite-lock.com/topic/4827/don-t-call-them-protestors
There have been recounts. They don't want a recount, they want the election overturned. And there were definitely people in the mob who were willing to kill to get that done.
I don't see any reason not to call this a (self)coup or insurrection.
I think the important point is that those people think the counting system was rigged. Like I said, misguided.
Maybe I'm misinformed, but wasn't the death amongst the intruders, and caused by the police?
Curator, Kia enthusiast, dad joke specialist
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@chariotoflove said in The danger our representatives are in:
Maybe I'm misinformed, but wasn't the death amongst the intruders, and caused by the police?
One was killed by law enforcement.
One was trampled to death.
2 others died from a medical emergency (stroke and heart attack).
And one officer died from injuries after being beaten by the crowd.
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@chariotoflove One police officer was beaten to death (technically died the next day) by rioters. Another committed suicide within a couple of days.
There’s a video in another post of a Capitol Officer being beaten with an American flag pole. Nothing like a killer metaphor to make the point.
And of course the “hang Mike Pence” chants were a bit foreboding. And the zip ties.
On walkabout. Back soonish.
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@zhp-sparky-the-5th said in The danger our representatives are in:
@chariotoflove said in The danger our representatives are in:
Trump’s action was a desperate and at the end reckless attempt to stay in office, but it was a bid to remain the legitimate office holder, not a coup.
Isn't that statement purely based on whose POV you're taking? I'm sure many terrorists have had similar positions in the past.
They thought they were acting to save it, not overturn it.
How exactly was this expected to work? Please - type it out for me, I'm genuinely curious.
Question for you - what action should be taken against Trump? Perhaps we can agree that the terrorists who stormed the capitol were horribly misguided individuals. What excuse does the President have in everything he said and did in the run up to these events, and his words and inaction since. He is still claiming that his speech last week was perfect and he did nothing wrong. Remember - this is the guy who watched this attack happen and told these people he loves them.
I am happy to entertain your conservative principles any day of the week, but this has nothing to do with conservatism and everything to do with a dangerous and unhinged president pushing his nutjob base to do nutjob things.
Oh, this is nothing to do with conservative policy. How was that supposed to work? It wasn't. It was a stupid, desperate act and a bad idea from the outset. They wanted to stop the certification from happening, going with the idea that as long as the ball is still in the air, the play goes on and victory is still possible. They were completely divorced from reality at that point.
What do we do about the President? I think we (meaning his handlers) keep him holed up and quiet and get him out of office in two weeks so he can fade away. I think you have a hard time getting legal action convicting him because although he encouraged people to march on the capitol and protest, he didn't tell them to do anything violent, and he later told them to stop violence (yes, I agree he egged them on and was wildly irresponsible and should have told them to stop sooner and more vigorously; again, I think he's nuts and probably even enjoyed the mayhem). Even more importantly, I think you want to keep this theatre of the pathetic off the stage and out of the Senate. The sooner he is out of the White House and into his private home, the sooner his influence wanes. You avoid impeachment and public hanging and such because that serves to keep the tensions high and battle lines drawn. At most, I see him becoming possibly like another Rush Limbaugh, with a following and no more political influence than that. Don't make him into a martyr for his cause. Do what's best for the country and end this chapter ASAP. As to the people who broke in and were violent? You follow the law. They are adults and are responsible for their actions.
Curator, Kia enthusiast, dad joke specialist
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@just-jeepin said in The danger our representatives are in:
@chariotoflove One police officer was beaten to death (technically died the next day) by rioters. Another committed suicide within a couple of days.
There’s a video in another post of a Capitol Officer being beaten with an American flag pole. Nothing like a killer metaphor to make the point.
And of course the “hang Mike Pence” chants were a bit foreboding. And the zip ties.
Oh my. Sounds like some assault and manslaughter charges are appropriate then.
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@chariotoflove said in The danger our representatives are in:
Those misguided folks who stormed the Capitol were not attempting to wrest control of the government for their leader, they thought they were intervening to salvage the machinery of democracy. They thought they were acting to save it, not overturn it.
Whether they thought they were doing the right thing, or were knowingly attempting a coup, they were happy to use force to enter a government building, overpowered police and security individuals, and voiced a want to enact violence on the lawmakers inside the building.
Intent matters, but actions speak louder.
@chariotoflove said in The danger our representatives are in:
i just truly think that going down this path of talking about insurrection and such is bad for all of us.
Respectfully, I completely disagree. A building was violently occupied by a mob, lives were lost, even more lives were in danger, and it was all spurred on by people in power asking for "trial by combat". The definitions to the terms "Insurrection" and "Sedition" absolutely seem appropriate.
From here, the only way to "go back to normal" is if justice is served on a scale appropriate to the actions taken by those involved. If these actions don't have consequences, the current rift in the US will only grow larger.
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@chariotoflove While I don't agree with you on a number of points, I still am very thankful for your viewpoint and the way you bring it to these conversations. They are so much more a level-headed take than what my oldest brother has proffered as of the last year or four in defense of the Republican Party and its supporters. He is more tame than what makes up much of the major presses, but alas, I still can't stand to listen to his takes anymore.
I can actually see the logical reasoning within your viewpoint and that is a breath of fresh air.
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@cobrajoe said in The danger our representatives are in:
From here, the only way to "go back to normal" is if justice is served on a scale appropriate to the actions taken by those involved. If these actions don't have consequences, the current rift in the US will only grow larger.
Okay, well if that has to happen, then as long as we go by the rule of law (which we will), it will all work out. People should be prosecuted for their illegal actions. And if the President is indeed to be impeached and convicted, then so be it. But I do think that if a conviction in the Senate cannot be reasonably expected by assessment ahead of time, then an impeachment process would be more political theatre than justice and would end up harming the country by 1) increasing polarization, 2) stoking flames and risk making a martyr out of a disgraced president, 3) drawing attention away from reconciliation between lawmakers and enacting of legitimate business.
I am always interested in justice, never in revenge.
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@flatisflat said in The danger our representatives are in:
@chariotoflove While I don't agree with you on a number of points, I still am very thankful for your viewpoint and the way you bring it to these conversations. They are so much more a level-headed take than what my oldest brother has proffered as of the last year or four in defense of the Republican Party and its supporters. He is more tame than what makes up much of the major presses, but alas, I still can't stand to listen to his takes anymore.
I can actually see the logical reasoning within your viewpoint and that is a breath of fresh air.
Thanks. I have a brother who is an avid Trump supporter, and though he is a really good and decent person, I have difficulty listening to some of his tirades. So, I can relate. But he also reminds me that folks with viewpoints that seem almost fringe and borderline unreasonable can still be people I love and respect. I try very hard to bring that lesson with me when I enter these discussions. Also, I have a wife with a very gentle spirit who has taught me about trying to see all sides.
I also have to say, that although I state my position, I am trying to see where you guys are coming from and am modifying my opinion of things in real time as we are having this discussion.
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@chariotoflove I think the main advantage to impeachment, regardless of timing, is that it will prevent him from ever running again due to ineligibility.
Otherwise he’s going to be a wrecking ball in the 2024 primaries and probably general election. I don’t think we can handle another term.
Quoting Russell Moore from the SBC again:
Look around us, five years into this experiment. Every family I know is divided over this personality. Every church I know is too. Friendships are broken, for almost everyone I know. And, most importantly, every survey shows that the church is hemorrhaging the next generation because they believe that evangelicalism is a means to an end to this political movement.
(Adding link: https://erlcemailcommunication.cmail20.com/t/ViewEmail/r/CFCAFA07E46FD7912540EF23F30FEDED/D7938FCF0A3B794C78EAE85EE68EA635)
On walkabout. Back soonish.
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@chariotoflove I think you underestimate his influence. You might be a free thinking Conservative (I feel that I am also to a degree) but the people he and Q has manipulated are dumb lemmings that will follow him to their deaths. He is as, if not more, dangerous than OBL. He has created domestic terrorists and you would be saying the same thing if this happened in any other country. I can feel that you love our country and our democracy but make no mistake, what happened last week was a serious attack and no one should think Trump is going away quietly. We should also not be naive to think this will all stop on January 20th. It's people like you and me who can actually talk to our conservative friends and tell them not to vote based on the persons political affiliation, but vote based on who is best for our community. People like Cruze and Hawley are not good for this country. Rs that truly love this country and democracy need to make a statement with their votes and $ to stop these terrorist and liars form holding office.
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@just-jeepin said in The danger our representatives are in:
I think the main advantage to impeachment, regardless of timing, is that it will prevent him from ever running again due to ineligibility.
Otherwise he’s going to be a wrecking ball in the 2024 primaries and probably general election. I don’t think we can handle another term.Was talking about that with my wife last night. I don't think his influence will last like that. In fact, I think he already poisoned his party's chances in the GA runoff. Folks are tired of him in the main.
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