Are EVs cleaner than ICE vehicles in their complete lifecycle

[MUSASHI66]

https://www.thedrive.com/news/electric-pickup-trucks-are-dirtier-than-you-think

Pretty interesting article, with numbers derived from a study conducted by an EV manufacturer. The cynical me can’t help but think those numbers are skewed to begin with, but if we accept them as the base value, it seems going EV it’s not really cut and dry “I’m saving the planet” - at least not for many years after the initial purchase.

We just started a process to get a quote for solar - house faces south and the flat roof would be the perfect receptacle for many panels. If we get solar, we’re doing it with the idea that we’re going EV for one of our cars as soon as it makes sense. Replacing the paid of RDX with a loan on a comparable BEV CUV would mean at least $30-40k out of pocket, and gas savings don’t make mathematical sense as we currently spend $200-ish on gas every month with the Acura.

[krustywantout]

@MUSASHI66 Saw this too. This is really for the larger EVs while most CUEVs and cars are more efficient and take up less resources. And as with most things related to savings based on efficiency, the amount of miles you drive determines the rate of payback. I personally love the fact I have a full "tank" every morning with an EV and would love to never go to a gas station.

[atfsgeoff]

@MUSASHI66 contrary to popular belief, humanity cannot consume its way out of climate change or environmental ruin.

You want to save the planet? Don't buy a new EV. Get a second hand bicycle along with panniers, use it to get local sourced food, and minimize consumption of frivolous gadgets. Live in a small, modest house or apartment. Invest in yourself and your family, not "things." Also don't have more than one kid.

[just-a-scratch]

@atfsgeoff said in Are EVs cleaner than ICE vehicles in their complete lifecycle:

@MUSASHI66 contrary to popular belief, humanity cannot consume its way out of climate change or environmental ruin.

You want to save the planet? Don't buy a new EV. Get a second hand bicycle along with panniers, use it to get local sourced food, and minimize consumption of frivolous gadgets. Live in a small, modest house or apartment. Invest in yourself and your family, not "things." Also don't have more than one kid.

I think this ideaof minimalism is correct, but it isn't the message we want.

[HammerheadFistpunch]

@MUSASHI66 I also want to go solar for the home, its amazing how energy intensive driving is. I figure I average around 25 kwhr per month for the year. or about what it takes to drive the f150 lightning towing a trailer 13 miles uphill.

[MUSASHI66]

@atfsgeoff I guess it’s pointless to even talk about it as it won’t happen unless forced by a cataclysmic event.

[MUSASHI66]

@HammerheadFistpunch We could cut 90% of our gas usage if we had a PHEV that could do 80 miles on battery. If we had solar panel to charge a car like that, and to power the house, we could save $500 on the house electric and gas for two cars. Of course, cost of panels is very high too.

[bison78]

@MUSASHI66

house faces south and the flat roof would be the perfect receptacle for many panels.

Truly flat isn't ideal -- the sun is never overhead as I think you don't live on the equator. Also, if you are on a time-of-use plan, true south isn't ideal from a value of electricity point of view.

The article is interesting, but, despite the negative writing, it shows that EVs do reduce CO2. The break-even point is around 60,000 miles, even in the worst case and trucks should last far longer than that.

Finally, in the US, about half the EVs on the road are in California, Washington and Oregon, where the electricity grid is considerably cleaner than the US average.

[Exage03040]

@MUSASHI66

I read it a couple days back too.

The EV vs. ICE topic is one where I think people are going to hear what they want to hear. The mainstream advertising focus is lower local emissions and greater power efficiency. It's true, but it's not the complete picture.

The largest problem I find is that there's no bread and butter way in comparability between even similar EV and ICE. There's significant variability based on where the vehicle is manufactured, then operated and maintained, and ultimately recycled. This is not only between different countries but even States and Provinces.

My personal ethos with regards to vehicles and being environmentally friendly is the same as atfsgeoff. You want to have a meaningful impact? Downsize. The Hummer, Lightning, Model S? These are not environmentally friendly vehicles, they are simply a little bit better with reduced emissions compared to their predecessors.

Be environmentally responsible... Buy a motorcycle!
[I may or may not be joking]

[GrindIntoSecond]

@atfsgeoff but how will my organic farm sustain itself without twelve kids of my own?

[MUSASHI66]

@bison78 Flat as in not a lot of protrusions. Sun blasts that part of the roof from sunrise until 5pm every day.

As for are their better or not, I guess in the super long run, they might make more sense than ICE, especially if the electricity source is nuclear or clean. But, for most people that buy new and trade when the warranty is out, they’ll never see the benefit.

[bison78]

@MUSASHI66

But, for most people that buy new and trade when the warranty is out, they’ll never see the benefit.

Teslas have lower depreciation than most cars, so even someone who trades up when the warranty finishes can benefit from an EV.

[MUSASHI66]

@bison78 I'm talking about the earth saving benefits, not price. Pretty much every EV takes longer to break even in CO2 than the factory warranty lasts.

[bison78]

@MUSASHI66

Pretty much every EV takes longer to break even in CO2 than the factory warranty lasts.

Doesn't matter. They contributed to getting an EV on the road which replaced an ICE.

[415s30]

@MUSASHI66 Yeah I'm keeping my Acura until it just doesn't make sense anymore. A hybrid Maverick would actually be perfect for my needs these days with a rack for our kayaks but I don't have anywhere to charge an EV or plug in at home. Plus I'm curious what vehicles will be coming out around the time I would need to change over. I could always buy a used Maverick.

[RallyDarkstrike]

@MUSASHI66 said in Are EVs cleaner than ICE vehicles in their complete lifecycle:

at least not for many years after the initial purchase.

By which time the battery will possibly have degraded to the point of being a lot less usable.

[RallyDarkstrike]

@Exage03040 said in Are EVs cleaner than ICE vehicles in their complete lifecycle:

@MUSASHI66

I read it a couple days back too.

The EV vs. ICE topic is one where I think people are going to hear what they want to hear. The mainstream advertising focus is lower local emissions and greater power efficiency. It's true, but it's not the complete picture.

The largest problem I find is that there's no bread and butter way in comparability between even similar EV and ICE. There's significant variability based on where the vehicle is manufactured, then operated and maintained, and ultimately recycled. This is not only between different countries but even States and Provinces.

My personal ethos with regards to vehicles and being environmentally friendly is the same as atfsgeoff. You want to have a meaningful impact? Downsize. The Hummer, Lightning, Model S? These are not environmentally friendly vehicles, they are simply a little bit better with reduced emissions compared to their predecessors.

Be environmentally responsible... Buy a motorcycle!
[I may or may not be joking]

This is why I'd love to see cars like the Aptera make it to market...solar-powered means you get 'free' energy from the sun to drive it (as long as you park it outside sometimes), and it's built light and aerodynamic, so the max amount of efficiency to save energy with a deliberately much smaller battery pack than most EVs need because it's so light and aerodynamic it doesn't need anything bigger...surprising amount of storage space, and it can seat two...which all most people would need on their daily commute...

I personally think we need EVs to go lighter and cleverer and smaller, not larger Crossovers and SUVs as a lot of them seem to be doing...

[415s30]

@bison78 When its flat they just use aluminum legs to tilt them to the right angle. My friends dad haa had a solar company in Honolulu since 1978. I used to work for him sometimes.

[415s30]

@RallyDarkstrike I've loved the Aptera since I first saw it. Makes sense, most of the energy we use is moving it through the air. All small cars should be an Aptera really otherwise you are just wasting energy.

[TheBarber]

@MUSASHI66

Soooo trucks are wasteful compared to other vehicles regardless of their motive power? But they are still better than their ICE counterparts.

Are EV trucks more environmentally friendly than a Civic? No and quite frankly that seemed pretty clear and was a dumb comparison for them to make. No one thinks that the Hummer EV is better for the environment then even something else in its weight class. To me I always saw it more as a "LOL, nature. does a sick burnout" kind of truck. No one buying that gives a shit about its impact. That being said, there is a lot of greenwashing marketing fap from some people at Rivian about their vehicles. I understand they want their company to succeed so they made a product that had a hot market. Now those trucks can fund their other planned line of smaller vehicles that might actually have a better environmental impact. The other legacy manufacturers are doing it now because they realize there is a market for it and it will further increase the efficiency of fleets. Just look at how many mild hybrids it has spawned in the last few years as well even before oil prices were a problem.

One thing that I think is worth mentioning is that they never mention maintenance over that span of time. Are EVs maintenance free? No, but compared to a ICE vehicle they require significantly less upkeep. Are they repair free? Not at all, shit breaks just the same. There is a lot of logistics that go into maintaining a vehicle. From the production of oil, to the refinement and manufacturing of the additives that go along with it as just one example. Our shop goes through just under 30 yards of waste a week maintaining and repairing vehicles. That's not counting the scrap and fluids that get recycled which also requires it's own whole logistics system.

Now If the EV manufactures didn't have such a push to wasteful concierge service then that would make things even better.

[RallyDarkstrike]

@415s30 said in Are EVs cleaner than ICE vehicles in their complete lifecycle:

@RallyDarkstrike I've loved the Aptera since I first saw it. Makes sense, most of the energy we use is moving it through the air. All small cars should be an Aptera really otherwise you are just wasting energy.

I will say I hate the way they are going with the interior with touchscreen everything and the stupid yoke, but I really like that they are trying to keep it relatively simple, they are big into Right-To-Repair so will be providing service manuals for it, and that everything is designed to be modular and relatively easy to work on.

A lot of people are complaining about the yoke though, so I am hoping they at least offer a round or even slimmer 'squircle' style wheel rather than the yoke as an option...

[RallyDarkstrike]

@TheBarber said in Are EVs cleaner than ICE vehicles in their complete lifecycle:

Are EVs maintenance free? No, but compared to a ICE vehicle they require significantly less upkeep

True, but my worry is what happens when the battery needs to be replaced out of warranty...

[TheBarber]

@RallyDarkstrike

I guess it depends on the battery pack and it’s lifespan? An EV battery like one in a Tesla is not really effective in a vehicle once it loses 20% of its capacity. I believe most users are reporting a 5% loss after 100k miles which is when the warranty is over. Sure you will always have those horror stories of batteries failing prematurely. I’ve replaced transmissions that cost $14,000 on occasion so the cost of a battery replacement doesn’t really make me shy away from the concept of EVs.

[415s30]

@RallyDarkstrike Yeah I don't want a yoke, I don't know why all these companies keep trying to do that.

[glemon]

@RallyDarkstrike Exactly--The new electric Hummer thing, huge battery and 9000 pounds. People buying it will compare energy costs to their old SUV truck, should be looking at big picture, what we could do with energy savings, not comparing to huge, inefficient ICE vehicles.