I don't know what not being your foe looks like. (Workplace situation)

[Rusty Vandura]

I'll try to be concise.

I am a public school educator and at 57, I am one of the older teachers on our faculty of 35-ish middle school teachers.

There's a teacher who basically runs the campus, and that's not entirely bad, because that makes for a lot of things that nobody else has to worry about. But there are problems because this person's control is absolute, for reasons. They are the union rep, but more than that, they are embedded in every union committee in the entire district. They are also embedded in every committee on the campus. They chair meetings and give their opinion of how something needs to be conducted, but when asked where that requirement is written, they stonewall. You know politicians by their stone walls. They become impatient when someone else tries to know what else is going on, or speaks with any authority about anything. They take on a bullying tone in meetings, trying to belittle anyone who asks any questions about procedure. (See: stonewalling, above.) But when you peel back all of the aforementioned, you find a person with genuine issues: running procedures is also a compulsion. As such, no argument to the contrary of anything they are offering, or, for that matter, no argument for anything they are offering, even registers. So arguing with them or having any kind of difference with them at all, is like urinating in a wind storm. They have zero other interests; this is their religion. There is no relationship to be had with this person that is not either purely political or purely transactional. (See: compulsion, above.) Fighting, resisting, arguing, are exhausting and all but futile.

So, surrender, right? I'm actually largely okay with that concept. I already credit them with doing a lot to serve the campus. But here are my two problems with that program: First, being friendly toward them, or even civil, just makes me feel like I'm selling out my integrity. It's just fake. I have great difficulty tolerating any dishonesty in anyone. (See: politician above.) Second, I wrestle with not wanting to dislike the person. In my mind, not liking someone is different from disliking someone, but when I even look at them, the feelings I experience are not feelings that I want to experience, so I turn and walk a different way when I see them. It takes two to tango, and I feel like a lousy dancer.

I do not want to be their foe, but I can't figure out what not being their foe looks like.

Any thoughts?

Thanks.

Oh, and here's a car, a Toronado, I think. I dig the wheels:
~

~
@Chariotoflove @Shop-Teacher @BicycleBuck

[CarsOfFortLangley]

@Rusty-Vandura

First, being friendly toward them, or even civil, just makes me feel like I'm selling out my integrity. It's just fake

imo, just roll with it. It's work, get through the day, earn money and live life outside of it.

[farscythe]

@Rusty-Vandura just be polite towards them
you dont have to like them
you dont have to be friends

[Rusty Vandura]

@CarsOfFortLangley said in I don't know what not being your foe looks like. (Workplace situation):

@Rusty-Vandura

First, being friendly toward them, or even civil, just makes me feel like I'm selling out my integrity. It's just fake

imo, just roll with it. It's work, get through the day, earn money and live life outside of it.

That's a good take if you're someone who can do that. Being an educator is a big part of who I am. But if I can figure out how to manage the association, then I won't be worrying about it on my days off any more. And people depend upon my leadership. So it's a struggle.

[CarsOfFortLangley]

@Rusty-Vandura Yeah, I figured that would be the scenario and was going to address it in my first reply. Obviously if you get meaning from your job or if it defines you, just letting it go isn't an option.

[Rusty Vandura]

@CarsOfFortLangley said in I don't know what not being your foe looks like. (Workplace situation):

@Rusty-Vandura Yeah, I figured that would be the scenario and was going to address it in my first reply. Obviously if you get meaning from your job or if it defines you, just letting it go isn't an option.

I wish I could just let it go; that would be a lot easier, and maybe that is the project at hand. It's a school, and it's children and their families and I just care. If I had a real job designing widgets or something, letting it go would be a lot easier. But your suggestion definitely has merit.

[Rusty Vandura]

@CarsOfFortLangley said in I don't know what not being your foe looks like. (Workplace situation):

@Rusty-Vandura Yeah, I figured that would be the scenario and was going to address it in my first reply. Obviously if you get meaning from your job or if it defines you, just letting it go isn't an option.

And like I said, it takes two to tango. I don't want to deny that I own part of, or maybe I am, the solution. Just ain't easy.

[Rusty Vandura]

@farscythe said in I don't know what not being your foe looks like. (Workplace situation):

@Rusty-Vandura just be polite towards them
you dont have to like them
you dont have to be friends

Maybe I can just be polite, and reconcile that with being FAKE. I hates fakery.

[Highlander]

@Rusty-Vandura I had a co-worker who I genuinely disliked. The guy was an A-class Dick. However he was pretty good at bull shitting and brining in good clients and good work. Recognizing that he was fundamentally good for the overall health of the company but I chose to not work with him due to said Dickish behavior. I just adapted a smile and keep walking and nothing more than small talk at the water cooler.

[farscythe]

@Rusty-Vandura its how i get through the day
anyways......polite isnt fake
its just giving out the bare minimum of niceties to make your own day easier...coz nobody needs hostility

[Manwich]

@Rusty-Vandura

"Any thoughts?"

Regarding this:
" First, being friendly toward them, or even civil, just makes me feel like I'm selling out my integrity. It's just fake. I have great difficulty tolerating any dishonesty in anyone. "

This makes me think of two things:

1. If you were in politics, you would be good and terrible at the same time.

2. Sometimes you need to fight fire with fire. So if you're dealing with an asshole, just ask yourself "What would Putin do?" or "What would Donald Trump do?".

"Second, I wrestle with not wanting to dislike the person. In my mind, not liking someone is different from disliking someone, but when I even look at them,"

You need to learn how to hate! Be more like me! There are a good number of people I've disliked over the years. And there are some I even hate! And it's always for good reason.

[LooseonExit]

@Rusty-Vandura

I am not you so I would do things differently. But that is not important tbh.

I think in your case it’s okay to respect (not like/dislike, mind you) someone for their knowledge and their capabilities (in most regards it sounds like) while not liking (maybe disliking?) or not respecting their personality, especially in regard to how they treat others. An “It’s business, not personal” kinda sorta thing.

This person has obvious control issues and an over inflated sense of self importance. Some level of narcissism. For some in you situation it helps to understand their personality (disorder) as to help you understand have to interact and communicate with them.

Just a thought. Not an easy situation to navigate, especially when you really enjoy your work and the negativity dealing with someone with those traits can bring.

[Highlander]

@Manwich I have straight up told a senior engineer at my office to "Fuck Off". Then they backtracked and said ohhh I really respect you setting boundaries. I then told them if they wanted me to finish the project we would have zero communication from now on or I would take all my files, put them on their desk and they were welcome to finish the work. That was the last project I did with that person and it was a good choice.

[Snuze]

@Rusty-Vandura I don't think being nice or civil towards them is fake or selling out your integrity because you're a genuinely nice guy. I think that argument only works if your natural disposition is being a dick and you fake being nice to others just to suit your own ends.

I try to be nice to everyone, even people I dislike, if only because there's rarely anything to be gained by being mean. That being said, I definitely minimize my interactions with those I don't like. I have better things to do with my time.

[atfsgeoff]

@Rusty-Vandura A benevolent dictator is still a dictator.

[flatisflat]

@Rusty-Vandura said in I don't know what not being your foe looks like. (Workplace situation):

It's a school, and it's children and their families and I just care.

You mentioned that this person does, in fact, produce a lot of positives for the campus (at least, that's how I interpreted it). So, while their means to get there are far from what you would prefer (and obviously have their significant deficiencies and demerits), if the end result produces good results for the school, the children, and their families, can you lean on that fact and be able to just be cordial with said faculty?

[Rusty Vandura]

@LooseonExit said in I don't know what not being your foe looks like. (Workplace situation):

@Rusty-Vandura

I am not you so I would do things differently. But that is not important tbh.

I think in your case it’s okay to respect (not like/dislike, mind you) someone for their knowledge and their capabilities (in most regards it sounds like) while not liking (maybe disliking?) or not respecting their personality, especially in regard to how they treat others. An “It’s business, not personal” kinda sorta thing.

This person has obvious control issues and an over inflated sense of self importance. Some level of narcissism. For some in you situation it helps to understand their personality (disorder) as to help you understand have to interact and communicate with them.

Just a thought. Not an easy situation to navigate, especially when you really enjoy your work and the negativity dealing with someone with those traits can bring.

Yes, all of that. I think I understand them reasonably well now. I have to figure out how to navigate now.

[Shop-Teacher]

@Rusty-Vandura That is definitely a Toronado. That's a tough predicament you're in. I can be outright hostile to my union reps if I chose to be (I don't, but that's not my point), because they are wildly ineffective.

[RallyDarkstrike]

@CarsOfFortLangley said in I don't know what not being your foe looks like. (Workplace situation):

@Rusty-Vandura

First, being friendly toward them, or even civil, just makes me feel like I'm selling out my integrity. It's just fake

imo, just roll with it. It's work, get through the day, earn money and live life outside of it.

I'm with @CarsOfFortLangley - You don't have to be friends with them, but be polite and get through the day.

[VincentMalamute]

@Rusty-Vandura You may be putting too much emphasis on labels like 'fake'. Call it something else that's just as accurate. Maybe call your opinion of him and responses to him as "cordial" or a "business" relationship rather than "fake" which appears to elicit a strong emotional response in you. Just changing the label to something other than "fake" may sit better with you.

Another aspect is that you may be approaching this in a black and white manner. Either you like the guy or you hate him. You don't need to consider him your enemy or your friend. He's not a foe nor your buddy. Just someone at work who you have positive as well as negative thoughts about but you need to accommodate them so you can do your job.

[Nicky Chagrin Janitor of SHIELD]

@Rusty-Vandura I've spent the past few months having to work with a guy who somehow makes me so angry that I have to take a break after meetings. And then I feel bad about myself for getting so much more angry than seems warranted. But he's been steadily giving me more easily-definable reasons, so I'm gradually feeling less bad about it and embracing the hate. You know, letting it flow through me. I focus my energy on finding ways to minimize my interaction with him.

[zipfuel]

@Rusty-Vandura I think you reframe it (ugh management speak) not as being fake but that this is a person/relationship that you have to manage.
There are people in my organization who are difficult to deal with and so the way I interact with them is more strategic and guarded than those I like and trust.
It sounds machiavellian but it's a lot more fun to think that way than deal with them on an emotional level - probably more productive than them seeing you as a threat to their power too.

[BicycleBuck]

@Rusty-Vandura

Lots of thoughts here. But first, I have to ask, what is your goal? Is it just finding a way to work with this fellow? Is it a clearly defined project that he's stonewalling? Or are you trying to wrest some control away from his iron grip? Know your goal so you can create a plan of action.

Next thought. People who focus on procedures and points of order crumble when those are used against them. Don't ask him for documentation. There's a good chance he's interpreting the rules in his favor or even making up new ones on the spot. Get a copy of the rules and procedures directly from the union. Learn it inside and out. Keep a copy with you when you must interact with him in a formal setting and be prepared to call him out when he makes an error. Hit him with the knowledge of the book.

Next thought. Whether they realize it or not, people put on a different hat and become a different version of themselves with every interaction. You certainly don't talk to your wife the same way you talk to your kids the same way you talk to your coworkers. What I mean by that is that I know how to communicate with different people. And I do it by changing my vernacular, intonation, body language, and even, to a lesser extent, my accent. Everyone does this, whether they are aware of it or not. I just recognize it and use it to my advantage.

It becomes more obvious when I am interacting with people from different cultures. It's obvious enough that my wife makes fun of me when I talk to my buddies from Oklahoma. Apparently, my Okie hat is pretty transformative and quite different from how I normally interact with her.

I wrote all that for this: it sounds to me like you need to find the right hat to wear when dealing with this guy. Understanding his strengths, weaknesses, and motivations will make it easier to interact with him. Once you understand how to communicate with him, then you can make inroads into changing the things that need to be changed, perhaps even softening his approach to the people around him. The idea is to become his friend. Then you can help him change his mind.

Here's a little light reading that can provide some additional insight: https://medium.com/@daniel_riley/how-to-change-someones-mind-become-a-friend-not-a-foe-848c00eeb5

[Rusty Vandura]

@BicycleBuck said in I don't know what not being your foe looks like. (Workplace situation):

@Rusty-Vandura

Lots of thoughts here. But first, I have to ask, what is your goal? Is it just finding a way to work with this fellow? Is it a clearly defined project that he's stonewalling? Or are you trying to wrest some control away from his iron grip? Know your goal so you can create a plan of action.

Next thought. People who focus on procedures and points of order crumble when those are used against them. Don't ask him for documentation. There's a good chance he's interpreting the rules in his favor or even making up new ones on the spot. Get a copy of the rules and procedures directly from the union. Learn it inside and out. Keep a copy with you when you must interact with him in a formal setting and be prepared to call him out when he makes an error. Hit him with the knowledge of the book.

Next thought. Whether they realize it or not, people put on a different hat and become a different version of themselves with every interaction. You certainly don't talk to your wife the same way you talk to your kids the same way you talk to your coworkers. What I mean by that is that I know how to communicate with different people. And I do it by changing my vernacular, intonation, body language, and even, to a lesser extent, my accent. Everyone does this, whether they are aware of it or not. I just recognize it and use it to my advantage.

It becomes more obvious when I am interacting with people from different cultures. It's obvious enough that my wife makes fun of me when I talk to my buddies from Oklahoma. Apparently, my Okie hat is pretty transformative and quite different from how I normally interact with her.

I wrote all that for this: it sounds to me like you need to find the right hat to wear when dealing with this guy. Understanding his strengths, weaknesses, and motivations will make it easier to interact with him. Once you understand how to communicate with him, then you can make inroads into changing the things that need to be changed, perhaps even softening his approach to the people around him. The idea is to become his friend. Then you can help him change his mind.

Here's a little light reading that can provide some additional insight: https://medium.com/@daniel_riley/how-to-change-someones-mind-become-a-friend-not-a-foe-848c00eeb5

These are good thoughts. I began the year trying to build a friendship with this person, but in trying to work with them, it became clear that any relationship would be purely political because they really don't, or can't, process an actual friendship. My goal, immediate term, is not loathing the person because that would be a fail, giving them negative power over me and all of that.

Your comment about them crumbling when I read the rules is very accurate, though in this case, they just stonewall and everyone else involved doesn't want any conflict, so they just sit silent. I think the way forward in that respect is a combination of knowing the rules and a lot of patience.

Thank you for your input! Happy Friday!

[Rusty Vandura]

@zipfuel said in I don't know what not being your foe looks like. (Workplace situation):

@Rusty-Vandura I think you reframe it (ugh management speak) not as being fake but that this is a person/relationship that you have to manage.
There are people in my organization who are difficult to deal with and so the way I interact with them is more strategic and guarded than those I like and trust.
It sounds machiavellian but it's a lot more fun to think that way than deal with them on an emotional level - probably more productive than them seeing you as a threat to their power too.

Good Morning Zippy, thank you for this. (I use reframe a lot. Reframe is one word that I keep for myself from the Lexicon of Uselessness.) I also like "strategic and guarded." I think as I reread and ponder what I posted, that I have to not deal with them at all on an emotional level. Indeed, the person seems pretty much emotionless anyhow. And I am an emotional person, so this is a challenging challenge for me. Teaching is very emotional anyways.

Happy Friday!