A Comparison of German and Italian Industrial Revolution Era Engineering and Machining

[Bandit]

I've recently accidentally begun collecting antique firearms, they just keep popping up for very cheap and I have a problem saying no. Here's my $75 antique shop find 1895 made M1893 Mauser made in Germany for the Ottoman Empire (top) and an 1894 Italian made M1891 Carcano Moschetto (bottom) I found the other day in fabulous condition. Both most likely used in WWI and potentially were in service through WWII. Even if you aren't into firearms, you have to appreciate the amazing design, metallurgy, and machining techniques available to and utilized by the craftsmen of the era.

This is not a detailed comparison, just a collection of thoughts I had while cleaning these recently. If there is interest I can take the rifles apart and go in much more depth comparing and contrasting design decisions and manufacturing techniques between these two.

(Carcano)

(Mauser)

The Berlin made Mauser is miles ahead of the Brescia, Italy produced Carcano in terms of machining. The safety on the Mauser is knurled precisely and beautifully where the quality of the knurling on the Carcano safety could best be described as "high school shop class." Same goes for the feeling of the triggers and bolts, the Mauser is nice and smooth where as the Carcano is gritty and wobbly. Though not pictured, the firing pin on the Mauser is a beautiful piece of work with way more machining steps than the Carcano's similar yet "dumbed down" design.

(Carcano, pre-cleaning)

(Mauser, pre-cleaning)

Same could be said for the bottoms of the receiver. Nobody would ever see the bottom, but on the Mauser all holes and cutouts are square and centered. The Carcano is a bit all over the place, the hole to attach the stock is slightly off center, the stanchion is not centered on the receiver flat, etc. Also look at the absurd amount of proof marks the makers put on the Mauser. Mauser milled the receiver flat whereas the carcano left everything rounded, functionally they're similar but it's obvious the Mauser was more costly to produce.

This difference makes sense though given where these countries were at the turn of the previous century. Italy was nowhere near the economic and industrial powerhouse that Germany was at the time. Italy had designed the Carcano mainly to replace it's ancient 1870 Vetterli rifle as to compete with the technical advancements of its nearby foe, Austria-Hungary. Germany on the other had completed development of several different generations of Mauser models between 1870 and the mid 1890s and had already begun widespread licensing their various designs to various countries around the world (a story for another day). Anyways, I hope you enjoyed my ramblings.

One last fun fact about these, as they were both made prior to 1898 the US government does not consider these firearms. They are simply antiques and can be bought and sold with no legal restrictions.

(Mauser)

(Carcano)

[Jawzx2]

@bandit it still weirds me out that guns this "modern" are old enough to be under the curios and relics list... The Mauser is basically the genesis of high quality mass produced bolt-action repeaters, and the Carcano is a reliable firearm, that while winning no rewards for refinement, will fire a quite lethal round at a similar rate to any modern bolt action gun. And yet we have to do a background check to buy a newer gun with the same characteristics (if chambered in a more modern, easily procured cartridge)

[jminer]

@bandit I love these guns too. Once upon a time I collected a bunch of old military surplus guns as they are really cheap. Ammo can be really hard to find and they're frequently unpleasant to actually shoot so I stopped. They are really cool guns though.

[A Former User]

@bandit I'm guessing the Geeerman is much better. I always had an HK in the Corps.

[Bandit]

@jawzx2 The crazy thing is these aren't even C&R, C&R is items between 1898 and 50 years from present. These are just straight too old to regulate, but still fire generally available ammunition and function effectively the same as any modern hunting rifle.

[Bandit]

@jminer Yeah I only get things these days when they are too cheap to say no to, like the $75 Mauser. Ammo is impossible to find right now, cant even find a place selling 6.5 carcano online so testing it will have to wait for another day.

[DipodomysDeserti]

@jawzx2 A background check to buy a gun? Where do you live, communist China? /s

My short barreled AR15 is owned by my LLC. I (my LLC) needed a $200 tax stamp to buy it, along with a year wait while the BATFE twiddled their thumbs, but no background check. Those rifles pack a much larger punch, my carbine is a lot more lethal.

[Chariotoflove]

Do you shoot them or plan to?

[barnie]

@bandit Any decent pawn shop has an FFL. Talk to the guys there. One of them will be gun guys and can get you hooked up. The ammo is available, it's just not online. Visit gun shows and ask around. They can help find the odd stuff, too. Not cheap but anything's possible.

My deer rifle is a .270 based on a Mauser '98 action Dad (RIP) built for me. From 1898. 9 out of 10 poker chips at 250 yards accurate.

[EssExTee]

@jawzx2 I'm of the opinion that if it can fire a readily available cartridge it should fall under all firearms restrictions. Grandpa's ol' black powder musket is one thing but 7.92 Mauser is still mass produced to this day over a hundred years later.

[Jawzx2]

@essextee that 1893 is in 7mm Mauser, not "8"mm Mauser.. Also still made, but less common. The 6.5 Carcano is probably harder to find, as the cheaper, less polished Carcano rifles didn't survive to this century is as large numbers as the Mausers. But even so, it still gets made is small batches.

[Bandit]

@Jawzx2 I'm actually rather fortunate, the Turkish military converted this 1893 from 7.65x53 to the now common 8mm round back in the 30s as concerns about a second world war were ramping up. I currently am currently shooting through WWII surplus German brass/bullets with new powder.

[Bandit]

@essextee I don't disagree, the laws around background checks are so weird and varied and it would be refreshing if there were standardized rules. The original cartridge for this Mauser was 7.65x53 which is impossible to find, this particular rifle was converted to that more modern 8mm standard back in the 30s as Turkey's concern about a second world war breaking out increased their need for usable weapons.

[Bandit]

@chariotoflove I shoot the Mauser all the time, it's chambered in the currently available 8mm Mauser round. I haven't yet found any ammo for the Carcano, but will shoot it when I find some for a reasonable cost.

[Chariotoflove]

@bandit said in A Comparison of German and Italian Industrial Revolution Era Engineering and Machining:

@chariotoflove I shoot the Mauser all the time, it's chambered in the currently available 8mm Mauser round. I haven't yet found any ammo for the Carcano, but will shoot it when I find some for a reasonable cost.

Cost can be an issue. Ammo for my brother’s WWI British army rifle is pretty pricey.