Is Stellantis going to milk the N/A 3.6L Pentastar and 5.7L Hemi until the end of times?

[MUSASHI66]

New Jeep Grand Cherokee (non-L model) is out and all the big magazines have articles about it. They are all raving about the all new model, which is lighter, more luxurious, with new uConnect. TheDrive compared it to a MB GLE 450. My comment was that they'll never compete with 3.0L I6 turbo and 4.0L V8TT engines with the engines as old as the ones they currently have - and I didn't even go into 8 speed versus 10 speed transmission in vehicles like the Explorer.

I remember reading this: Most notably, for the U.S., Stellantis said it would offer an electric Dodge muscle car by 2024 and Jeep would offer an all-electric SUV in every vehicle segment by 2025.

I can see them offer 4xe on many Jeeps, but I see zero chance of an all-electric Jeep SUV in every segment by 2025.

I presume that they will milk the Pentastar and Hemi until they have electric cars or more hybrids ready to sell. I predict that the Pentastar and 5.7 Hemi will struggle unchanged for as long as they can sell them, and that they'll compete with the others just with fancy interiors and new uConnect systems.

This seems to be their strategy with platforms and engines. See Dodge Charger and Challenger, Chrysler 300 - milk them til they die and just offer more and more special editions. In 2021, they have... wait, do they really have just one PHEV vehicle, and it is a Wrangler, in all of their North American options? I guess they have 2, I forgot the Pacifica for a second.

I can't decide if this is the most brilliant strategy ever - milk it and never change anything until ICE is dead, or if it will come and bite them in the ass big time.

[i86hotdogs]

@musashi66 If they are going full send in to this EV transition, there is no point in developing an new engine for the next generation of ICE vehicles. If anything, they'll adapt the Pentastar and the 5.7 to work with hybrid powertrains like Ford did with the Ecoboost engines making the Powerboost F150

[dogisbadob]

Most of the costs have already been paid for

Ford did the same thing with the Panthers: keep making them until the tooling is worn out

[Huzer]

@musashi66 The Pentastar in our Grand Cherokee just keeps chugging along. It has what, 295hp, and motivates it just fine. I am curious about the upcoming 4xe Grand Cherokee, though.

[nth256]

@musashi66 I mean, the Penta and the Hemi have their issues, sure, but overall they're both pretty robust, make decent power...

[CobraJoe]

@musashi66 said in Is Stellantis going to milk the N/A 3.6L Pentastar and 5.7L Hemi until the end of times?:

I can't decide if this is the most brilliant strategy ever - milk it and never change anything until ICE is dead, or if it will come and bite them in the ass big time.

As long as they're working on a solid EV offering for the future, it is a very strong strategy.

The Charger and Challenger are offering features that no other manufacturer is offering (namely, a functional back seat in a muscle car). The Mustang and Camaro have both chased the specs and lap times and have ended up losing sales. I believe they're cutting themselves out of the "middle aged dad" market that both of them used to be kings of.

Might as well keep offering the "old school" stuff while people still want it. Just as long as the EV stuff isn't put on back burner so long that it's outdated when it's brand new.

[ShrimpHappens]

@musashi66 ~2.5 yrs ago, rumor mill was hot that FCA was working on a forced-induction I6. Nothing has been said recently, though

[Napoli]

@musashi66 I'm surprised you don't see the Alfa Romeo turbo four in any of the Dodge/Jeep vehicles. It has great horsepower and gets decent gas mileage.

[CoolMinivan.......Nobody]

@musashi66 For me this falls into the "Why change what works?" category.
Both the Pentastar and the Hemi produce decent power and get respectably economy, while being relatively trouble free. Why is there anything wrong with that?

Same goes for the 8 vs 10 speed debate, who TF cares? The 8-speed is a wonderful transmission that does a great job of putting power through it while having more than enough gears. I already feel 8+ speeds is just too damn many. 4-6-8-10 doesn't matter when your final gearing remains almost identical between them.
My 6-speed in my 2018 runs the same highway rpms as the 4-speed in my 1994.

[nermal]

@musashi66 The most recent update to the Pentastar was in 2016. It's a very good engine for what it is, a ~300hp NA V6. Same goes for the ZF 8 spd that it is most commonly connected to. Spreading development costs for both over 5+ years = PROFIT.

From my personal experience it doesn't make much power at lower rpms but also doesn't use much fuel there either. It's the opposite at the top of the rev range. So, keep the revs low for economy, combine with a transmission that can downshift smoothly and quickly for when you need powahhhh.

The 4xe is based on the 2.0t engine that is also available in other Jeeps and Alfas. Last I read the Wrangler 4xe was the best selling plug-in in the US, so it appears to be well received. Just like with the V6 and and 2.0t combined with the ZF 8, they invested into making a good drivetrain to start and now they're gonna copy-paste it into everything.

Their future business plan now includes designing a few EV powertrains that they will also copy-paste into everything. I think that FCA / STLA engineering is best described as polarizing. They deserve the bad reputation they get for when they screw things up (like the paint on my Jeep). The stuff they get right is really, really good though.

[Future Next Gen S2000 Owner]

@musashi66 They are just milking their initial investment in the engines. It could be a cost savings measure as they invest on hybrid systems. Those cars essentially print money. The platforms and major development have been paid for. They Hellcat motor/lineup has been hugely successful.

They will milk them until the EPA puts them out to pasture. I don't see it as a bad thing. HP levels are more than adequate. With cylinder deactivation and the new rounds of ZF transmissions, there isn't a huge mpg hit.

I'm okay with it honestly.

[Future Next Gen S2000 Owner]

@long_voyager94 Sure the final ratio may be the same but sub highway speeds and partial load, more gears are better. You can get to the sweet spot for more load combinations with the higher number of gears. Plus better acceleration.

[Demon Xanth]

@musashi66 Considering how little the 5.2 and 5.9 changed during it's tenure, which was only a slight change from the LA 318 and 360 that were introduced in the '60s...

I don't see the 5.7 making any massive changes until it can no longer pass emissions.

[Mr.Ontop]

@napoli The best part is that it breaks down almost as much as regular Dodge motors, too!

[way2blu]

@musashi66 hold up. The current Dodge Challenger uses the ZF8 transmission on automatic models, right?

What if:

The 4xE hybrid system can be adapted for the 5.7 Challenger. Optimized for improving economy while cruising and around town, yet it still has the V8, the Challenger gets to meet emissions requirements into the foreseeable future. Sells really well because it's even more daily-drivable while making V8 noises.

2035-ish: Mandates for no more sales of new fossil-fuel cars are coming into effect. Dodge rolls out 5.7 that runs on liquid hydrogen. Challenger sales are stronger than ever.

The modern Challenger (and Charger too) will be competing with the Morgan 4/4 at this rate, hahaha.

[CoolMinivan.......Nobody]

@future-next-gen-s2000-owner said in Is Stellantis going to milk the N/A 3.6L Pentastar and 5.7L Hemi until the end of times?:

@long_voyager94 Sure the final ratio may be the same but sub highway speeds and partial load, more gears are better. You can get to the sweet spot for more load combinations with the higher number of gears. Plus better acceleration.

Getting away from our HP war in favor of low end torque solves that issue far quicker than adding more gears.
It also has the bonus of better economy.

For instance, my 94 is more enjoyable to drive around despite having 2 less gears. Why?
Because it has loads of low end torque, so it doesn't need to downshift 2 gears to make power, simply roll on the throttle and away you go.

[CobraJoe]

@future-next-gen-s2000-owner said in Is Stellantis going to milk the N/A 3.6L Pentastar and 5.7L Hemi until the end of times?:

Sure the final ratio may be the same but sub highway speeds and partial load, more gears are better.

There's got to be a point where more gears don't make much of a difference, especially on engines with wide torque plateaus.

[CoolMinivan.......Nobody]

@cobrajoe That's the main reason modern engines need all those gears, they lack the low end torque of old engines.

[Napoli]

@gibbsemphasis I'm pretty sure this is the road Alfa Romeo is going down. I think it is pretty much going to be plug in hybrids that way they still have a nice sound. It isn't an awful idea, I just feel that plug in hybrids are fundamentally flawed vehicles after having owned one. I'd rather have a purely electric car that way I have to deal with less maintenance.

[CobraJoe]

@long_voyager94 said in Is Stellantis going to milk the N/A 3.6L Pentastar and 5.7L Hemi until the end of times?:

@cobrajoe That's the main reason modern engines need all those gears, they lack the low end torque of old engines.

I'm not sure that is completely true. Higher revving engines don't really show off their low RPM torque, because they're tuned to be more docile at low throttle inputs and to downshift at bigger throttle inputs. Plus, an engine that can rev out will always feel less powerful at lower RPM, even if it delivers the same torque as an engine that chokes by 4500 rpm.

Though I bet some newer NA engines make less torque than an older equivalent, it's not universally true. A 5.0 Coyote makes more torque at 2500 RPM than the peak torque of the legendary 5.0 Windsor.

[MUSASHI66]

@i86hotdogs It seems reasonable, but even at this point, it seems they are behind the curve by a nice margin.

[MUSASHI66]

@dogisbadob All the costs have been paid for and they have been making money. But, my question is if that is a sound strategy - they are making money now, but can they keep milking the same engines until EVs take over?

[MUSASHI66]

@huzer It is "just fine", but so far removed from competition that has been doing much better than just fine for a while.

Ford 3.5L EB + 10sp auto has been around for a while, and Stellantis has nothing like that in the pipeline.

[ranwhenparked]

@musashi66 The Pentastar is still a pretty new design, barely a decade old. I'd expect they'd be milking it for quite some time yet, even if there wasn't a hard expiration date due to the EV mandate. I mean, their AMC straight six was in use for like 40 years, and the slant six made it about 30

[MUSASHI66]

@nth256 They do, but are ancient compared to modern drivetrains. Is this strategy going to work - use these two until EVs are everywhere, or are they going to be caught with their pants at their ankles in 10 years when ICE engines are still going strong, and Stellantis ICE offerings are from ancient history?