Food for thought, on why the Acura Integra isn’t a 2-door coupe this time:
-
Looking at the previous-generation Civic, we can see that being a coupe doesn’t offer a weight advantage. In fact, (any engineering Oppos please chime in and explain this better than I can) being a coupe can be less effective for weight savings in cases where more roof pillars would be geometrically more efficient.
Despite its shorter wheelbase and smaller size, the 2020 Civic coupe weighed within single-digits of the sedan.
I really like the new Integra. Currently writing up a more detailed take on its use cases (and how much I want to get one) which I’ll post up here later today. What do you all think of it?
@ GibbsEmphasis on YouTube and IG
1991 MR2
2019 Rally Camero -
@gibbsemphasis That, and nobody buys coupes anymore. (yes, there are many factors as to why)
It's sad though. I would have for sure got a 2-door GTI back in 2018 if I had the chance. I guess I technically could have got an A5 as a 2-door when I got my most recent car, but the prices and deals on A4's were way better and it's basically the same car.
-
@gibbsemphasis I think the Integra isn't a coupe because they killed the Civic coupe and weren't going to design a whole new chassis just for the Integra. How much the Integra is just the Civic liftback I think further supports this.
-
@gibbsemphasis modern consumers no longer expect or care about a choice of different body styles, the cost of developing and certifying each body variant is massively higher than a few decades ago, and also just selling people on a normal car instead of a light truck with a tailgate is hard enough in the first place, anything with less than 4 doors is increasingly showroom poison.
-
@gibbsemphasis
I’m the resident Acura fanboi, so I think it’s ok. I’m not lighting my hair on fire because it doesn’t live up to its namesake. The old Integra was a fancy civic and so is this. Which is a nice thing to have in the market.
This will be good for someone who enjoys the benefits of the Si but wants more creature comfort -
@classicdatsundebate I'd wager the CTR based version of the Integra is going to be awesome too. Even more so if they give it AWD. Make it a true S3/RS3/Golf R fighter. That kind of power with SH-AWD and Honda reliability sounds amazing.
"What are you gonna do, stab me?"
-
@wasgtithengtothennovathengtinowa4
Oh yeah…even the 280hp Acura turbo with SHAWD would be sweet! -
@gibbsemphasis Coupes just aren't selling well as people can increasingly only afford one car and are going to go for the most practical one they can find (hence the rise of the crossover). If you notice, pretty much the only coupes left on the market are dedicated performance cars. Honda very predictably didn't take the risk engineering a coupe only to have it sell a tenth the numbers the sedan does.
RE: the weight, coupes need larger doors. The bigger the opening in the car's structure the more structural bracing is needed.
The person reading this is a doo-doo head
-
@gibbsemphasis the 2020 Civic sedan and coupe actually have the exact same wheelbase (106.3”), the sedan is 5” shorter overall but that difference is entirely behind the rear axle, hence the nearly identical weight. This is actually very common for cars that have coupe and sedan variants.
I used to think the coupes had shorter wheelbases as well but someone on Oppo/Jalopnik corrected me on it years ago. Look up the wheelbase for any generation of the 3-series coupe and sedan if you want some confirmation.
-
@classicdatsundebate This is exactly why I like my 15 ILX still (6MT with the 2.4L). It's an LSD away from being really great. But it lets me as a middle-aged dad have some comfort but still fun to drive. Since they killed the 6MT Accord, I figured I'd have to "go down" to a Civic Si for my next car, but the Integra looks like it'll fit the bill nicely for me.
-
Because it's 2021 and it was unequivocally, absolutely, never ever going to be a two-door coupe? I'd bet my left kidney the idea wasn't ever raised at any point in the development process.
-
The Integra is the reason there's no Si hatch for 2022; they had to make room for the Integra.
The real test will be the GSR and ITR models. See what Honda/Acura does with them.
@daswauto said in Food for thought, on why the Acura Integra isn’t a 2-door coupe this time::
@gibbsemphasis the 2020 Civic sedan and coupe actually have the exact same wheelbase (106.3”), the sedan is 5” shorter overall but that difference is entirely behind the rear axle, hence the nearly identical weight. This is actually very common for cars that have coupe and sedan variants.
I used to think the coupes had shorter wheelbases as well but someone on Oppo/Jalopnik corrected me on it years ago. Look up the wheelbase for any generation of the 3-series coupe and sedan if you want some confirmation.
+1
On top of that, the 2-doors that really were just 2-door variants of the 4-door sedan looked a lot cooler than the ones trying to be different/separate models
-
@wasgtithengtothennovathengtinowa4 said in Food for thought, on why the Acura Integra isn’t a 2-door coupe this time::
Even more so if they give it AWD. Make it a true S3/RS3/Golf R fighter. That kind of power with SH-AWD and Honda reliability sounds amazing.
Yeaaa I’m pretty sure Honda doesn’t have that kind of development money and would be stupid to try. VAG can afford to throw those dollars around. Plus I see no provisions in the body of the Civic to fit a driveline nor a rear diff.
Honda Tech | WA State
04 TSX | 95 Civic | 09 Pilot | 09 Odyssey -
I'm getting more interested in the new Integra. The 4-door liftback works for me, and the LSD/manual is the big attraction. I really don't need the big power of the R, so I'm happy that I won't have to pay extra for it. FWD with more than 200hp really doesn't make sense to me, however they happen to handle torque steer issues.
The big problem for me will be the arrogant ass Acura dealers standing in the way of a purchase. I'd bet there is an 80% chance that Acura will fail to sell me one of these strictly on dealer asshole issues.
-
@thebarber It'd be fun though!
"What are you gonna do, stab me?"
-
@wasgtithengtothennovathengtinowa4 @TheBarber
Just imagining an AWD 2.0T Integra Type R (as in Rally) and internally screaming for Honda to make that happen.
-
@wasgtithengtothennovathengtinowa4 @GibbsEmphasis
Oh 120%. I miss the days of them being bold and innovative. That money dried up long ago though. There's a troubling amount of engineering jobs unfilled and a lot of career employees have retired early. I wouldn't be surprised if they left California soon and completely consolidated to Ohio to save more money. If it means that they can brave some R&D though, I'm all for it!
-
@gibbsemphasis not to sound rude, but there isn't much food for thought here. When was the last all-new coupe without a German badge that sold over five figures? Maybe the FRS/BRZ twins, but those are RWD sports cars whereas this would be the inexpensive "personal coupe". Even the Germans are dropping their small and large coupes, so I don't see it as any question that the "Integra" would be rebooted as a 5 door. I don't understand everyone's problem either, as the Integra originated from the Honda Quint (or Quintet) which would seem named thusly for its 5-door provenance. Funny, though, that the first gen proper Integra therefore got a 3-dr called "Integra Quint"! They should have called that variant the Integra Trio...
-
@amoore100 I agree with you, we are lucky that Honda is doing the Integra at all, much less the Civic Si and the Type R. I am sure there are no shortage of planners there that rightly argue that any investment in sports sedans is a waste compered with their needed investments in CUV's, trucks, and electric vehicles.
I look at the Integra as a very positive commitment by Honda to keep its hand in sports cars. The new Integra results in the Si and Type R chassis investments being spread across a larger amount of car sales. This makes the business case for killing the Si and R even more dubious.
Also. I think Honda will fine a nice market for the base Integra. Over the years, I've had a people ask what my Si was and interest ceased the moments I told them it only came as a stick. BMW and Porsche make automatic versions for a reason, they sell.
Now I probably be shouted down for this heresy for saying an automatic is a good thing. But my point is now Honda can make their sports civic chassis as an automatic without being accused of betraying the Si brand. Here's to the day that Honda is recognized as making more sports cars than any other manufacturer.
-
@gibbsemphasis This might be a hot take, but FWD coupes make no sense. FWD is primarily a compromise for cost and practicality. A coupe negates a lot of the practicality and likely costs more as a lower-volume vehicle. If you're willing to live with space compromises, might as well get a "proper" sports coupe like the inescapable 86 or Camaro
. The only potential win for a FWD coupe might be the looks, but it's a big challenge given the econo-bones. Some of the old FWD Hondas were very pretty, but we're long past the age when manufacturers could get away with low-cut hoods and spaghetti-strap pillars. The last Civic coupe wasn't a huge step up in the looks department. 4-door CTR FTW! -
@racinbob said in Food for thought, on why the Acura Integra isn’t a 2-door coupe this time::
Now I probably be shouted down for this heresy for saying an automatic is a good thing. But my point is now Honda can make their sports civic chassis as an automatic without being accused of betraying the Si brand. Here's to the day that Honda is recognized as making more sports cars than any other manufacturer.
I'm still reserving complete judgement until I hear the specific tuning the 1.5L will get in Integra configuration and what auto they decide to mate up to it. The 10-speed would be great but it's a pretty chunky fit and the 8-DCT is pretty dated at this point with being 5 years old. I'm always leery about Honda shoving old tech and new tech together. Although I'd laugh if it does get the DCT as that will further reinforce the whole ILX rebadge thing. I really do like the interior of the new Civic even if the liftback is a travesty. I can't wait to see what the interior of the Integra looks like.
Honda Tech | WA State
04 TSX | 95 Civic | 09 Pilot | 09 Odyssey -
@thebarber My guess is its either the Civic CVT or the present ILX. I wonder if the 2 liter ILX transmission will even bolt up to the 1.5.
My expectation is they will be using the Civic CVT because it is easy. I would be impressed if they continue with ILX transmission or develop a new one as that would be a significant commitment to have a unique gearbox on the Integra turbo 1.5.
-
I do admit the CVT is the most likely option. The DCT wouldn't fit the L series without some casting changes. Which is probably why they neglected to mention it specifically in the press release. People are already dumping on it enough for being a Civic with lipstick, I couldn't imagine the ire from the "enthusiasts" if they also said it was going to come standard with a CVT in the debut. Gotta keep it positive.
I have nothing against the CVT and found it quite fun to drive in the Civic. They've also seem to be pretty robust and able to survive the mild tunes.
Honda Tech | WA State
04 TSX | 95 Civic | 09 Pilot | 09 Odyssey -
@thebarber I agree with those assessments. Personally my expectation of the Integra is it will be a more mature and polished Si. I bet it gets the type R knuckles and maybe more sophisticated shocks to improve ride while delivering handling.
For most people that want this car, the CVT will be fine. If they don't want this car, they have a Si, Type R or Type S available. Or they can spend 50% more and get a BMW......
-
Acura has said they’ll never have a CVT, so I think the 8speed DCT will be there.
God I hope the 8 speed DCT is there, it’s a great transmission.
