Poll: does this rallycross cone count?
In rallycross, knocking over a cone counts as an extra 2 seconds added to one's aggregate lap time. The goal is not to knock them over. However, I saw a quite ambiguous case in my rallycross footage from this weekend:
It's pretty clear the cone isn't upright any more after I oppositelocked past it, but as far as I can tell, my Camaro never actually touched the cone. In fact, the cone seems to be sitting in the same spot it was initially set in, just folded upon itself from the spray of dirt.
Does this cone count? Not like my times are competive yet... Nor would a good driver be oversteering outward from that angle while setting a fast lap... But, like, really, how would you judge a situation like this in a competition? I clearly was still within the course limits and didn't cut any corners. The cone clearly isn't what it used to be, but still is where it used to be. Unstoppable force vs. immovable object scenario here. What do you all think?
That sucks, but a downed cone is a downed cone...
beefchips last edited by beefchips
I'm going to apply the soccer standard, there has to be a clear and obvious error revealed by the replay to overturn the call. I'm not getting a good enough view here for "clear and obvious"
But I thought there was no penalty if the cone was lying down but still in place? In which case you should be good!
beefchips last edited by
@davesaddiction oh right, scooting to the side is ok but down is no bueno.
Mr.Ontop last edited by
@way2blu I would say no, because it looks like it was knocked over by the dirt you were slinging, not the car itself.
@davesaddiction Okay this just made it even more confusing. If the cone’s square base is still exactly where it started in its “box” but it’s bent out of shape from the dirt (such that a course worker still has to reset it) then what’s the call?
Is that what happened? LOL - yeah, no penalty!
And get rid of that crappy cone!
Urambo Tauro last edited by
@way2blu My two cents: Under normal circumstances, the car is usually the only thing that would knock the cone over, and thus a fallen cone would be a dead giveaway that the car went out-of-bounds. But that doesn't appear to be what happened here. Dirt causing the cone to fall does NOT indicate a failure to adhere to track limits. And I think that's the important thing. Focusing too much on the simple fact that the cone fell is a good way to lose sight of the spirit and purpose behind its placement.
nermal last edited by
@way2blu This is the "official" rule on cones:
A. A 2-second penalty will be given if a course marker/pylon is upset or
That looks to be "upset" to me.
Also on course design:
Course markers should mark the inner limits
and may mark the outer limits of turns and corners, displacement of which
results in a time penalty.
So, it's ok for them to put a cone there, and your driving flattened it. Penalty is valid.
WhoIsTheLeader last edited by
@way2blu It shouldn't count in an ideal world but mechanisms to catch that error are far too much trouble to be worth it. It seems impractical to make exceptions from the organizer's point of view.
Shop-Teacher last edited by
@way2blu Sorry boss. Down is down.
That cone had a family.
Their grief doesn't care if the dirt or the bumper killed their loved one.
AkursedX last edited by
After watching the video again I might have to change my vote. I initially voted as it being 2-sec. But now that I look at it more, it seems like the base is still flat on the ground but its just the top that folded over. If thats the case, I'd call that clean. The base of the cone is what matters IMO.
WBizarre last edited by
@way2blu in absolute terms I'd say no it doesn't count, but in the absence of cameras to determine what caused it the realistic call is probably "down means down".
Also, if it's a dirt autos event this probably happens pretty often, no? This kind of thing should be addressed in the rules.
Highlander last edited by
@way2blu It appears the cone folded due to dirt spray and not contact with the car. That is in my opinion not a 2 second penalty. It's very odd that the cone folded and did not tip.
ItalianJobR53 last edited by
@way2blu Depends on the exact rule...in AutoX, the cone is in as long as the base of the cone is standing up and is touching the box thats marked around it on the road surface(usually with chalk)
I know of aero on cars (canards usually) slicing the cones but the base is still in the box so its not counted as a cone. By that logic, your cone is still "in" and should not be a penalty.
At our rallycross events (non-scca), they explicitly tell us that cones knocked over by rooster tails count against you. That's a rule that should be clarified in advance, possibly at the driver's meeting for the next event.
Sorry it's cliche at this point, but how's the visibility out of that thing on a tight course? What about the size / weight? I tried out an AW11 MR2 on a rallycross course recently and it's sort of ruined me for normal size cars.
VeeArrrSix last edited by
@way2blu Cone is neither down, nor out... it's just got flattened. The base was still on the ground in the same spot.
Future Next Gen S2000 Owner last edited by Future Next Gen S2000 Owner
@way2blu No, the base hasn't moved and if any part of the cone is touching the marked area and it is still standing, is okay.
Future Next Gen S2000 Owner last edited by
@wbizarre The corner worker should be running to reset it. They would see it hasn't moved and should signaled all clear to the corner captain.
i86hotdogs last edited by
This one is tough. SCCA rules explain that if the cone is knocked over by any means of the vehicle (contact, or dirt moved by said vehicle), it's a penalty. But taking a closer look, the base of the cone doesn't seem to move at all. The structure of that cone must be made of tissue if it just "collapsed" like that.
I've seen a cone get hit, flip in the air, and still land in the chalked zone. I've also seen a vehicle's tire lift enough to go completely OVER the cone without touching it. Both are non-penalties.
BUT, I've seen a cone get hit, but the cone was frozen to the ground (it was -10F before wind chill) and the base remained in the spot. The body of the cone was obliterated. Officials ruled it as a penalty. I think your situation might be something similar to this. I frequently find cones on the outside of turns practically buried from the dirt accumulating. That's on the event leads to clean off said cones in between run sessions.
All of that explanation and I still don't have an answer. I'll ask my other RX buddies and share the video. I want to say no because I'm relaxed and want everyone to have fun.
rctothefuture last edited by
It looks like it folded and didn't really move? Hard to say, I'd go with no as the vehicle didn't make contact.
@bryan-has-a-neon-with-an-sti The sight lines aren’t terrible for rallycross/autocross! It’s actually quite easy to place if you’re looking ahead on the course. There’s a theme in lots of reviews of 6th-gen Camaros that the car “shrinks around you” at speed and is very communicative at the limit.
Back before I figured out to look ahead, I did partially melt a cone under my exhaust because any cone less than 15 feet away is invisible below the car’s high beltline. It basically forces good driving habits (looking ahead and anticipating obstacles) because if one doesn’t look ahead, then it’ll already be too late. Especially for the cone.
I got to keep the cone and now it’s a “look ahead” reminder in my garage
BRZ4Science last edited by
That sucks, but a downed cone is a downed cone...
This is the call. We had an autocross event 2 years ago with torrential rain but no lightning. A cone was subject to a bow wave from cars and it was determined that a penalty would be assessed if the cone was displaced by the wake of a car, the same as if the air, exhaust, or flapping number magnets would have knocked the cone over.