EV Thought Exercise

[Mr.Ontop]

So... I've been thinking, which is rarely a good thing, and I still believe that simply because of the pace of technology the next great hooning grounds for car people will be electric, whether we like it or not. And in the idea of making it into something we would like, I wanted to throw out some ideas and hear yours on the subject as well.

One of the main gripes about EVs is their cost and complexity. For the most part an EV is a stone simple system. Battery, controller, motor and zoooom! But there is more too it than that with the modern electric car and I think that stems back to everyone wanting everything all at once. That seems to be what Tesla caters too. A Tesla has every modern electronic convenience you can imagine and a few you can't. Cameras and lights hooked up to everything, over the air updates giant displays in the center consoles etc The electric offerings from the larger manufacturers are getting caught up to that pretty quickly.

I think it is going in the wrong direction with this "everything and the kitchen sink" approach to features. Yes, it's nice having all of that stuff, but I don't think it is exactly what a car guy would like. Once you get outside of having the car nice and shiny (or patina'd for you rat rod guys) we like to keep it pretty simple.
I think it is a direction that should be pretty appealing if only we can get back to that.

I'm a fan of the idea of having the "Skateboard" body and then building whatever you need on top of it. But I have to think, how much more power could I put to the wheels, if I weren't running all of this other crap?

My idea is what would you build with modern batteries and platform but super simple drive? What would you cut out to add lightness? What features would you keep and why? What would you leave so that you could expand on it later if you were so inclined?

For me, I think I would go with a sedan/hatchback of some sort, easy to live with, and practical, but also pretty easy to have some fun with when not loaded down with the day to day stuff. Maybe even a classic like this one, because I find the styles of the 40's50s appealing (better paint though. Personally, I'm over the patina)
About the only moden thing I would have on the car is bluetooth and Air conditioning. (I live on the edge of the desert, it gets a little toasty here sometimes) but overall, I'm interested in less show, and more go. If you could make the calls, what would you have? Let our imaginations run wild!

[Someoneatacura]

@mr-ontop said in EV Thought Exercise:

So... I've been thinking, which is rarely a good thing, and I still believe that simply because of the pace of technology the next great hooning grounds for car people will be electric, whether we like it or not. And in the idea of making it into something we would like, I wanted to throw out some ideas and hear yours on the subject as well.

One of the main gripes about EVs is their cost and complexity. For the most part an EV is a stone simple system. Battery, controller, motor and zoooom! But there is more too it than that with the modern electric car and I think that stems back to everyone wanting everything all at once. That seems to be what Tesla caters too. A Tesla has every modern electronic convenience you can imagine and a few you can't. Cameras and lights hooked up to everything, over the air updates giant displays in the center consoles etc The electric offerings from the larger manufacturers are getting caught up to that pretty quickly.

I think it is going in the wrong direction with this "everything and the kitchen sink" approach to features. Yes, it's nice having all of that stuff, but I don't think it is exactly what a car guy would like. Once you get outside of having the car nice and shiny (or patina'd for you rat rod guys) we like to keep it pretty simple.
I think it is a direction that should be pretty appealing if only we can get back to that.

I'm a fan of the idea of having the "Skateboard" body and then building whatever you need on top of it. But I have to think, how much more power could I put to the wheels, if I weren't running all of this other crap?

My idea is what would you build with modern batteries and platform but super simple drive? What would you cut out to add lightness? What features would you keep and why? What would you leave so that you could expand on it later if you were so inclined?

For me, I think I would go with a sedan/hatchback of some sort, easy to live with, and practical, but also pretty easy to have some fun with when not loaded down with the day to day stuff. Maybe even a classic like this one, because I find the styles of the 40's50s appealing (better paint though. Personally, I'm over the patina)
About the only moden thing I would have on the car is bluetooth and Air conditioning. (I live on the edge of the desert, it gets a little toasty here sometimes) but overall, I'm interested in less show, and more go. If you could make the calls, what would you have? Let our imaginations run wild!

Disagree. Modern luxury cars have just as much crap feature wise, plus everything else to make an ICE and it’s necessary components work (transmission, cooling, fuel, etc etc etc). EVs are simple, have less moving parts, heat cycle less (and less parts heat cycle).

Land Rover has options for heated wipers, and heated washer jets. They have an electric feature for nearly every feature on a car. How much power does that consume, and from an alternator which would be less efficient than a DC to DC converter?

[Mr.Ontop]

@someoneatacura That's what I'm saying. I want to get away from all the extra crap such as what you just named.

[Someoneatacura]

@mr-ontop said in EV Thought Exercise:

@someoneatacura That's what I'm saying. I want to get away from all the extra crap such as what you just named.

Then buy a non luxury EV. Unfortunately right now, because EV costs are not quite at parity with econo-car ICE vehicles, there will be more incentive to make higher end EVs to help fund cheaper EV development. They still see operational cost reductions compared to ICE vehicles (When looking at a well established brand, not Tesla), and gets the R&D going with that funding (Just like how Tesla doesn't release the base model with small margins first, and instead offers high end trims first).

[AMGtech]

@mr-ontop simple, practical, fun? AMC Eagle! Just modernize the steering and suspension a little bit so it handles better. Give it 400hp or so and it's perfect.

[Mr.Ontop]

@amgtech I like the way you think.

[farscythe]

i'd build me one of these on a skateboard....as nissan wont

just minus most of the tech...handcranked windows are fine...dont need a radio...hell..as its lectric might as well chuck out most of the soundproofing for added lightness
guess id need to keep the heater at least tho

[Manwich]

@mr-ontop said in EV Thought Exercise:

For the most part an EV is a stone simple system. Battery, controller, motor and zoooom!

If you're making an electric golf cart, yes.

But if you're trying to make a BEV that is also a great vehicle people want, then you also have to add a sophisticated battery management system integrated with a sophisticated heating and cooling system. Plus, people want their toys and features. And then you also need fast charging ability... along with being able to charge using a regular outlet... which adds more complexity.

And then you need good software to drive it all.

"About the only moden thing I would have on the car is bluetooth and Air conditioning. "

Would it also have drum brakes and no ABS? Would it have a dual circuit brake master cylinder?

[Mr.Ontop]

@manwich "Plus, people want their toys and features." I'm not talking about regular people, I'm talking about car people.

[sn4cktimes]

@mr-ontop I have heavily considered EV-ing my Dodge Rampage. Batteries are still a bit out of my range.

[sn4cktimes]

@amgtech don’t temp me… I’ll eventually EV my Eagle. Probably in a decade.

[Someoneatacura]

@sn4cktimes said in EV Thought Exercise:

@mr-ontop I have heavily considered EV-ing my Dodge Rampage. Batteries are still a bit out of my range.

Bazinga!

[Mr.Ontop]

@sn4cktimes If you don't drive more than 80 miles a day or so, keep an eye out for a wrecked Leaf, you can probably get some good parts from one of those for that project cheaper by buying the whole car than just the battery!

[Mr.Ontop]

@farscythe I would hoon that mercilessly!

[Manwich]

@mr-ontop said in EV Thought Exercise:

@manwich "Plus, people want their toys and features." I'm not talking about regular people, I'm talking about car people.

Well I'm a car person and I would want SOME features... like front disk brakes, ABS, dual circuit brake master cylinder, regenerative braking, a decent HVAC system and a decent stereo.

So to answer your question:
"My idea is what would you build with modern batteries and platform but super simple drive? What would you cut out to add lightness? What features would you keep and why? What would you leave so that you could expand on it later if you were so inclined?"

If I was building my own BEV, I wouldn't go cheap/simple/low end route. I'd actually want to go in the other direction.

What I would do is start with a RWD Tesla Model 3 SR+ (with a Long Range battery pack) and drop the body of an early 1960s Lincoln Continental 4 door hard top on it (the one with the suicide rear doors).

I'd want the exterior to be all Lincoln... right down to the wheels and tire size if possible.

I would keep the entire Tesla powertrain, batteries and suspension. I think I would also want to keep the Tesla HVAC, SAT-NAV and stereo system..

For the interior... this is the original Lincoln interior:

I would want it to have a mix of new and old.

For the seats, I would either keep the Continental or Tesla seats... depending on which is more comfortable. I would have them redone in a high quality cloth/velour material. I like the idea of a bench seat. But I also like the idea of modern seats with built-in head support.

I would also keep the 3 point seatbelts from the Tesla.

I would keep the steering wheel from the Lincoln... though the lack of airbag may cause issues.

I would also keep the part of the Lincoln's dashboard by the steering wheel. But the center part would be replaced with the big Tesla screen because I'd want to retain the stereo and HVAC controls.

And I would like it if the Lincoln's speedometer, switchgear and controls could somehow interface with Tesla's electronic controls. Those functions would likely be duplicated by what can be done in the touch screen, but I like the idea of having the option of using the screen or the tactile old controls.

So if I was building my own custom BEV, that's what I'd do.

If I wanted cheaper/more simple, there are plenty of cheap used compliance-car BEVs out there.

[i86hotdogs]

I'm in agreement on this. Everyone loves the velour of the fancy EV vehicles because of all the features that come with it. Reinventing something as simple as a door handle drives me nuts. mechanical style door handles have worked well for ages. Although there are advantages to having flush doors (aerodynamics, fuel/EV efficiency), I see it as one more luxury thing that will break down eventually.

GMC Hummer EV is being praised (by the masses, I know it's a hot topic here) because of all these cool features it has. Meanwhile, the Ford Lightning EV truck is basically a regular F150 with an EV powertrain. But everyone loves the Hummer EV and the Cybertruck for the coolness.

If I wasn't renting my home, I'd seriously look in to the Chevy Bolt or Nissan Leaf. They're the closest things to a simple economical EV as we have right now. In a perfect world, a mid 90s Camry with EV powertrain would be the perfect EV

[TheBarber]

@manwich said in EV Thought Exercise:

@mr-ontop said in EV Thought Exercise:

For the most part an EV is a stone simple system. Battery, controller, motor and zoooom!

If you're making an electric golf cart, yes.

But if you're trying to make a BEV that is also a great vehicle people want, then you also have to add a sophisticated battery management system integrated with a sophisticated heating and cooling system. Plus, people want their toys and features. And then you also need fast charging ability... along with being able to charge using a regular outlet... which adds more complexity.

And then you need good software to drive it all.

"About the only moden thing I would have on the car is bluetooth and Air conditioning. "

Would it also have drum brakes and no ABS? Would it have a dual circuit brake master cylinder?

Also, isolation circuit monitoring because first responders matter too! As well as the occupants and those servicing the vehicle of course. I supposed that's covered under the general battery management system but its an item people like to gloss over when thinking over conversions. Ever been shocked by a golf cart? Hurts like a bitch. Something bigger? You're lucky to be able to say that it hurt like a bitch...

[sn4cktimes]

@mr-ontop I don't normally. But sometimes I do. So it's not time yet. Once I can afford a decent pack of batteries that can charge within the 40 to less category I'll be more game. I doubt I'll need 300 miles. But more than 80 would be good.

[Manwich]

@thebarber said in EV Thought Exercise:

I supposed that's covered under the general battery management system

Yeah... I was thinking that. But related to what you said, safety is one of the big reasons why new vehicles will never be as simple and light as they used to be decades ago.

[awesomeaustinv]

Personally, since electric cars don't need transmissions, I see no reason why we can't just build an AWD two-motor electric car with two front ends. It would make parking and pulling out of parking spaces a breeze, because you'd almost never have to back out of anything. Plus, since it's electric, it can have a trunk at both ends, so it's plenty practical.

If you want more cargo space than a sedan, you could build one with the room-on-wheels minivan approach where it has a hatchback (hatchfront?) at both ends, and/or possibly a storage space in the middle accessible by a pair of gullwing doors in between the front and rear doors.

If we're okay with a little asymmetry, we can add a third row of seating by making the "front" doors at one end longer than at the other end, so the third (or second depending on how you look at it) row can be accessed similarly to how you access the back seat of a coupe. So basically the interior layout would be first row, second row, cargo space, third row. With a little trunk at both ends. If a hatchback (hatchfront?) counts as a door, this vehicle has 8 doors...

Of course, this asymetrical van with two front ends will have to have different driving modes depending on which end it's being driven from, which could probably be switched between simply depending on which end the key is in. And screw those systems that detect when the key is nearby so you can push a button to start, this thing's gonna have a conventional key, as God intended, so the van knows which end the driver is in.

If necessary/beneficial, adaptable suspension could adjust the alignment so the suspension will work better directionally. I don't think this is necessary, but it could improve ride quality. And depending on which end is driven, the other end would probably have to deactivate its airbags so kids can sit there.

As long as there are hatchbacks (hatchfronts?) at both ends, perhaps the "front" passenger seat at both ends could be folded down to increase cargo space. Heck, while we're at it, make all the seats except the driver's seats able to fold down, and put the driver's seat at booth ends in the CENTER, with a seat on either side of it, so that with all foldable seats folded down you have a giant flat cargo space with the square footage equivalent of two pickup truck beds-worth of space, which goes uninterrupted all the way to the other side!!!

This thing could seat as many as 9 people (with either one or two rear-facing rows of seats depending on the direction driven) and carry more cargo than a pickup truck with extreme practicality and parking prowess like nothing else!

And it would look so bizarre that no one would buy it...

[ranwhenparked]

@manwich In terms of style and packaging, the Nobe 100 is basically the ideal electric vehicle for me.

The interior is gorgeous

The only real con is the range is only about 130-150 miles, which is really not enough for me to use as a primary car (I frequently do 200-250 a day for work, and often do 400+ a day on weekends during the summer), but, its just enough that I could maybe justify having one as a 3rd car, especially since its pretty compact and won't take a lot of parking space.

Unfortunately, it appears to have turned out to be vaporware, but, it at least was fully engineered and production ready, so shows the potential to do a car like this.

[zipfuel]

@mr-ontop someone's comment earlier about Tesla being the Apple of cars where the charge port will fall before the battery got me thinking if there might be an analogy of cars and cell phones/computers.
Tesla seem to be like Apple, lots of features but a walled garden ecosystem with everything under their control through their own network.
Then you've got the auto OEMs GM, VW etc who are similar to established electronic companies like Samsung/Sony etc - they'll build stuff that will be much more open to third party repair/modification but there will still be limits and lots of complications.
I'm more interested in the third wave of cheaper manufacturers out of China (like the Huawei I'm writing this on) who are more likely to use common open source type parts and be much more hackable/tuneable as a result. You can already buy all of what you'd need to build a simple lower performance EV conversion vehicle off Alibaba/express right now. Give it a while and I don't doubt there will be whole subframes and battery modules available. A whole skateboard is a bit of an ask because wheelbase, track and payload are variable. Of course the biggest hurdles will be regulatory, while there's none of the emissions madness to worry about there will unquestionably be some kind of minimum safety standards to meet. I want to start tinkering with scooter power kits in preparation for this era now.

[Mr.Ontop]

@zipfuel I'm with you. Ive already done a restoration of an old Zapp emoped, but I want to do something bigger next time. Something more in line with the wv equivalent of a 250cc bike. Im just trying to figure out a way to make it more cost effective.