Maintenance Questions For The Council... (i.e. you)
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@taylor-martin I would not be worried about the grooves if you can just feel them with a fingernail. That is par for the course. The bigger concern is whether the present ones are warped. I hate replacing them as you will certainly have the challenge to find a set that does not warp.
My Honda rotors haven't shown deterioration in 14 years and 100K miles to justify replacement. As I mentioned, my GM ones did and I was lucky that the Raybestos rotors I found worked like new without warping in the 3 years I have had them.
My advice is don't replace them unless you have a reason.
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@taylor-martin so brake stuff
Rotors are kind of tricky. There will be specifications in your state inspection guide to follow. Generally speaking, older cars had thicker rotors you could reuse a few times, newer cars often you can't. If you do new rotors you also need new pads as the pads will groove the rotors. Many guys will just do it all at once since they are often cheap on "normal" cars. Stock stuff is fine. Pads, oftentimes now will have a cut down the middle. This is for a wear sensor on new cars. When they get below that, it cuts a wire that runs through that slot. Or, when they get close to the backing material.Got an older car? Older than say 15 years or so? If you are already gonna do the fluid, maybe change the soft rubber brake lines. Cheap n easy, they age and swell internally or split under pressure.
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@racinbob said in Maintenance Questions For The Council... (i.e. you):
@taylor-martin I would not be worried about the grooves if you can just feel them with a fingernail. That is par for the course. The bigger concern is whether the present ones are warped. I hate replacing them as you will certainly have the challenge to find a set that does not warp.
My Honda rotors haven't shown deterioration in 14 years and 100K miles to justify replacement. As I mentioned, my GM ones did and I was lucky that the Raybestos rotors I found worked like new without warping in the 3 years I have had them.
My advice is don't replace them unless you have a reason.
Centric premium high carbon rotors are fantastic and made for a lot of cars. Centric is the parent company of Stoptech who also makes excellent products. Some of your advice sounds a bit dangerous, especially to someone who is doing this for the first time. Don't bleed your brakes? Come on, that's shit advice.
Tools can get expensive quick. Rent what you can and buy what you are able to afford for the rest. Basic hand tools will last you a long time but specialty brake tools will get used once every few years at best. Personally I have an impact to zip off lug nuts and bolts and whatnot but buying into a decent battery platform costs a good bit of money up front.
If you want to look outside of OEM parts I highly suggest Centric premium rotors, I have run many sets of them on various cars with never a single issue. I replace rotors any time I replace pads and these are fantastic quality. I have also run a couple sets of more aggressive pads, currently on my second set of Hawk HPS 5.0s and love them. Along with a set of stainless flex lines I installed years ago the braking in my car is immediate and linear which the stock setup was not. In my car I also found Stoptech street performance pads to be almost exactly OEM feel without the OEM tax but I don't know what a TSX equivalent would be.
Second, having heard horror stories of people breaking ABS modules by pushing fluid back through them (had a friend fry his) I never risk this. Too much at stake for no gain. Instead I open the bleeder when I retract the piston. I have just pushed them back successfully but bleeding brakes is not a big deal. HOWEVER, I suggest having someone else with you to push the pedal. Hand vacuum bleeders never seem to get all the air out and power bleeders are not cheap. An additional benefit to doing it this way is you are ridding yourself of the fluid that has been sitting in the caliper heat cycling and helping refresh the system. A flush is a good idea if it's never been done (typically recommended every 2 years but rarely accomplished this way) and that's basically bleeding for a long time. May be a bit much for a beginner but none of this is hard.
Get a torque driver (the manual hammer hitting screw driver shown above) if your rotors are bolted on. Also use a penetrating oil (my preference is AeroKroil, PB makes me gag) and give the screws a few hefty shots. After a decade or so on there they will be reluctant to come off.
Make sure you have all the tools and parts you need before you start, or have someone willing to get you to a store to retrieve them. Realizing half way through a job that you are missing something is a pretty awful feeling.
I realize now how hard it is to give advice on this since I have a garage full of tools, most of my friends are car guys who are always working on something, and I've been doing brake jobs since I was in auto class at 14.
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@mybirdistheword Part of the discussion is to look at how deep the wear is. If they are at minimum, time to replace.
Also, if you are seeing cracks in the rubber brake hoses, time for them to go too. For changing brake hoses, I recommend paying someone as your chance of getting the fittings apart successfully are marginal at best. Let someone who does this for a living give it a try.
As for the rotor mounting screw, I drill them out and live without them. Their function is for assembly and the rotors are located and held by the rim. The screw has no function once every thing is tightened down.
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@zaphod-s-heart-of-gold said in Maintenance Questions For The Council... (i.e. you):
Make sure you have all the tools and parts you need before you start, or have someone willing to get you to a store to retrieve them. Realizing half way through a job that you are missing something is a pretty awful feeling.
Or breaking a wheel stud. I had two break while removing the lug nuts the last time I did the brakes on my WRX.
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@zaphod-s-heart-of-gold said in Maintenance Questions For The Council... (i.e. you):
If you want to look outside of OEM parts I highly suggest Centric premium rotors, I have run many sets of them on various cars with never a single issue. I replace rotors any time I replace pads and these are fantastic quality. I have also run a couple sets of more aggressive pads, currently on my second set of Hawk HPS 5.0s and love them. Along with a set of stainless flex lines I installed years ago the braking in my car is immediate and linear which the stock setup was not. In my car I also found Stoptech street performance pads to be almost exactly OEM feel without the OEM tax but I don't know what a TSX equivalent would be.
Honda Brake parts are very well priced, you need to go to Advic/Akebono level Aftermarket manufactures to find a comparable quality, which in the dealer world meant it was the same selling price (sometimes more expensive).
Re: Replacing rotors. Honda has a clear publish minimum thickness measurement, usually it's on the rotor itself. If you haven't cooked them just measure, if they're too thin, replace.
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@zaphod-s-heart-of-gold The brake flush is definitely the part that's irking me the most, since while it is a simple job in theory, it's catastrophic to mess up. Preferably, I'd have a second person there who knows what they're doing, rather than just a second person there.
Anyways, let me reiterate what you said to make sure I have it straight: Remove the calipers/pads and then push the pistons in before flushing the brakes (I deal in absolutes, so it's either a full flush or no flush). Should I just finish up the pad/rotor job before bleeding the brakes, since then the pistons on the calipers will still be pushed in?
I wish I had an auto tech class, just one, or more car friends nearby, but alas, that's not the way the cookie crumbled.
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@taylor-martin said in Maintenance Questions For The Council... (i.e. you):
@zaphod-s-heart-of-gold The brake flush is definitely the part that's irking me the most, since while it is a simple job in theory, it's catastrophic to mess up. Preferably, I'd have a second person there who knows what they're doing, rather than just a second person there.
Anyways, let me reiterate what you said to make sure I have it straight: Remove the calipers/pads and then push the pistons in before flushing the brakes (I deal in absolutes, so it's either a full flush or no flush). Should I just finish up the pad/rotor job before bleeding the brakes, since then the pistons on the calipers will still be pushed in?
I wish I had an auto tech class, just one, or more car friends nearby, but alas, that's not the way the cookie crumbled.
You bleed the brakes once they are all back together. If you want to do a full fluid flush I would recommend a prolonged bleed operation at each corner ensuring you keep the reservoir full enough not to introduce air into the system on that end. In the past I have drained an entire system then refilled with good success but if you will already have someone in the car you can bleed the brakes until you see no air bubbles, then just keep repeating the press and hold, open bleeder, close bleeder, release brakes and repeat. Do this for a while at each corner and as long as fluid is coming out and you keep enough in the master reservoir you will be getting the old fluid out. This is not like a coolant flush where you drain fill, run, drain and refill but just replacing all the old fluid.
So complete the brake job (new pads and rotors installed) then do all the bleeding and if you want to do a flush just keep repeating the bleed process after you have all the air out of the lines.
Like I said earlier it's possible to do a brake job without ever cracking the lines open by just retracting the pistons without opening the bleeders but there is a small possibility of doing damage to the ABS unit. I have a buddy who needed his module replaced after doing brakes this way and it's scared me off of that procedure even though I had done it many times in the past. Despite what has been said earlier bleeding does not take all day, it should take maybe 5 minutes a corner if done properly with a 2 person setup. I recently had to get all new fluid into a system where we replaced a bunch of lines and the process took about 30-40 minutes
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You bleed the brakes once they are all back together. If you want to do a full fluid flush I would recommend a prolonged bleed operation at each corner ensuring you keep the reservoir full enough not to introduce air into the system on that end. In the past I have drained an entire system then refilled with good success but if you will already have someone in the car you can bleed the brakes until you see no air bubbles, then just keep repeating the press and hold, open bleeder, close bleeder, release brakes and repeat. Do this for a while at each corner and as long as fluid is coming out and you keep enough in the master reservoir you will be getting the old fluid out. This is not like a coolant flush where you drain fill, run, drain and refill but just replacing all the old fluid.
THIS.
You be the one at the reservoir, you can get any old chump to pump the pedal for you. Get extra brake fluid. When I used this method on my wife's forester, I was right to the end of the second bottle. Would have felt much better with a 3rd.
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@zaphod-s-heart-of-gold said in Maintenance Questions For The Council... (i.e. you):
Tools can get expensive quick. Rent what you can and buy what you are able to afford for the rest.
Tools aren't really the biggest expense, it's the parts that are getting costly. The brakes alone are running me close to $400 for all 4 corners, and other things I want to get done are getting pricier and pricier (the dashcam is around $100, and the skid tray around $200... yeesh). Though I suppose all this is cheaper than just having a mechanic do it, but still.
In terms of tools, I think it makes sense to buy everything I'd need to do an oil change (jack, stands, a 14mm socket wrench, and a filter wrench) and then go to a DIY garage for the rest (they also have discounted parts, at least that's what they say). But the real kicker is that they charge for mechanic assistance, the main reason I like going to these garages, so that really stinks.
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@zaphod-s-heart-of-gold said in Maintenance Questions For The Council... (i.e. you):
So complete the brake job (new pads and rotors installed) then do all the bleeding and if you want to do a flush just keep repeating the bleed process after you have all the air out of the lines.
@Taylor-Martin The only modification I'd make to the procedure outlined by @Zaphod-s-Heart-of-Gold is a concession to the limits of available jack stands. When I do brakes, I do one corner at a time and do everything, including bleeding, before putting the wheel back on and moving to the next corner. To me, it's much easier to bleed them while the wheel is off. I've done it both ways and finally decided to take the easy route.
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@taylor-martin said in Maintenance Questions For The Council... (i.e. you):
@zaphod-s-heart-of-gold said in Maintenance Questions For The Council... (i.e. you):
Tools can get expensive quick. Rent what you can and buy what you are able to afford for the rest.
Tools aren't really the biggest expense, it's the parts that are getting costly. The brakes alone are running me close to $400 for all 4 corners, and other things I want to get done are getting pricier and pricier (the dashcam is around $100, and the skid tray around $200... yeesh). Though I suppose all this is cheaper than just having a mechanic do it, but still.
In terms of tools, I think it makes sense to buy everything I'd need to do an oil change (jack, stands, a 14mm socket wrench, and a filter wrench) and then go to a DIY garage for the rest (they also have discounted parts, at least that's what they say). But the real kicker is that they charge for mechanic assistance, the main reason I like going to these garages, so that really stinks.
If you want to work on things I suggest getting a basic mechanic's tool set, something like this https://www.lowes.com/pd/Kobalt-232-Piece-Mechanic-s-Tool-Set-in-3-Drawer-Chest/5000183119
It is by no means a comprehensive set but will get you pretty far.
IMO filter wrenches are a waste of money unless it's in a completely otherwise-inaccessible spot. Channel locks will grip and turn just as well and have plenty of other uses. I've not used "good" filter wrenches but every one I try just seems to slip. When I install my own filters I get them just snug enough and am able to remove them by hand the next time.
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@bicyclebuck said in Maintenance Questions For The Council... (i.e. you):
@zaphod-s-heart-of-gold said in Maintenance Questions For The Council... (i.e. you):
So complete the brake job (new pads and rotors installed) then do all the bleeding and if you want to do a flush just keep repeating the bleed process after you have all the air out of the lines.
@Taylor-Martin The only modification I'd make to the procedure outlined by @Zaphod-s-Heart-of-Gold is a concession to the limits of available jack stands. When I do brakes, I do one corner at a time and do everything, including bleeding, before putting the wheel back on and moving to the next corner. To me, it's much easier to bleed them while the wheel is off. I've done it both ways and finally decided to take the easy route.
My method involves the car on stands at all 4 corners, all wheels off the ground and removed. I should have stated that explicitly but it goes back to my "hard to give advice when this is second nature" argument
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@zaphod-s-heart-of-gold said in Maintenance Questions For The Council... (i.e. you):
If you want to work on things I suggest getting a basic mechanic's toolset, something like this https://www.lowes.com/pd/Kobalt-232-Piece-Mechanic-s-Tool-Set-in-3-Drawer-Chest/5000183119
Oooh it comes in a very nice box too. With jack/stands, an impact drill, and a torque wrench, that'd pretty much be all I need to do oil changes, get the wheels off and on, and do the brake job (with the exception of the brake tools to push in the pistons).
I think the reason I needed a filter wrench last time was because the filter was on tight. If I'm not mistaken it was hand tightened this time around, which is how you're supposed to do it... maybe it was a quarter turn, I can't remember.
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@zaphod-s-heart-of-gold said in Maintenance Questions For The Council... (i.e. you):
My method involves the car on stands at all 4 corners, all wheels off the ground and removed. I should have stated that explicitly but it goes back to my "hard to give advice when this is second nature" argument
I figured you were thinking about it being on a lift or on stands. Some of us aren't so fancy!
Speaking of second nature, I listened to a podcast on how our knowledge doesn't always carry over through our communications. The link should take you right to a place to listen, but if you'd rather look it up yourself, it's Cautionary Tales with Tim Harford, Episode 6: "The Curse of Knowledge Meets The Valley of Death." I found the episode to be quite interesting since I'm often on the receiving end of poor communications.
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@taylor-martin said in Maintenance Questions For The Council... (i.e. you):
Though I suppose all this is cheaper than just having a mechanic do it, but still.
Find out what the dealer would charge you for this job. The difference between their charge and your $400 parts cost is free money you're allow to spend on tools, dashcam, skid tray (?) without guilt. (Not sure about the skid tray though!
)@zaphod-s-heart-of-gold said in Maintenance Questions For The Council... (i.e. you):
IMO filter wrenches are a waste of money unless it's in a completely otherwise-inaccessible spot. Channel locks will grip and turn just as well and have plenty of other uses. I've not used "good" filter wrenches but every one I try just seems to slip.
I have quite a few filter wrenches and sockets. This is what I use now:
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@vincentmalamute That's the style of filter pliers I've settled on as my favorite too. Easier to use than band or strap wrenches IMO.
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@someoneatacura Naw that would be your dealer specific DMS software. Where you go to for your online parts catalog (since you are...were parts) The main Honda/Acura Interactive Network. Instead of clicking on the parts tab (CPO, Parts, Service, Online University) Under the service tab and at the bottom of the left menu exists Express Service. They made that a few years ago so the newbies could find capacities, brake measurements and basic torque specs without having to be trained on how to navigate the Service Information System. Like I said I don't know if they have a different style system up there but that would be weird if they did? Yea I usually just averaged them out as most guys won't know if they are Akebono or Nissin or something. That was really the only difference in how much meat they came with. Oh and the new Continental brakes on the Hondas in the rear are now a 2mm indicator. Totally different from what we've ever used in the past. I hate them. I don't know what Acuras they got stuck on yet.
CPOs are good money. I always loved what sales tried to decline on a CPO. Tough cookies, you want to sell it certified? Cough up the cash.
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@urambo-tauro said in Maintenance Questions For The Council... (i.e. you):
@vincentmalamute That's the style of filter pliers I've settled on as my favorite too. Easier to use than band or strap wrenches IMO.
You are clearly an educated and cultured gentleman.
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@vincentmalamute Haha, I have 10's of thousands of dollars in tools and I use a pair of busted ass channel locks I found rusting in a ditch 25 years ago to take off oil filters. I shit you not. They just worked almost every time so why bother I guess? I still have some other filter cups and sockets and such but the channel locks are first grab.
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@vincentmalamute if I were to buy a specific filter wrench it would be that exact one. But a regular pair of channel locks works just as well and I already have a couple different sizes. On my own car I can spin the filter off by hand though since I don't put it on like an ape
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@thebarber said in Maintenance Questions For The Council... (i.e. you):
@someoneatacura Naw that would be your dealer specific DMS software. Where you go to for your online parts catalog (since you are...were parts) The main Honda/Acura Interactive Network. Instead of clicking on the parts tab (CPO, Parts, Service, Online University) Under the service tab and at the bottom of the left menu exists Express Service. They made that a few years ago so the newbies could find capacities, brake measurements and basic torque specs without having to be trained on how to navigate the Service Information System. Like I said I don't know if they have a different style system up there but that would be weird if they did? Yea I usually just averaged them out as most guys won't know if they are Akebono or Nissin or something. That was really the only difference in how much meat they came with. Oh and the new Continental brakes on the Hondas in the rear are now a 2mm indicator. Totally different from what we've ever used in the past. I hate them. I don't know what Acuras they got stuck on yet.
CPOs are good money. I always loved what sales tried to decline on a CPO. Tough cookies, you want to sell it certified? Cough up the cash.
Not sure if EBIZ on the Acura side had the express service section, since Acura dealers never had Express Service. Ever since ESIS was instated finding service information became that much more difficult. I will say, TOPIX at JLR is substantially worse (Their version of ESIS). What models have the Continental Pads? I know most of the part numbers for Acura still, wonder if any cross reference.
Part of me misses the Honda system due to it's simplicity, but the other half is glad I'm challenging myself. However, it is odd that my main challenge is looking up a simple part because the VIN doesn't break it down enough or the description doesn't find it using search. The department itself has some big issues with the inventory and it's tidiness, but they're being handled as quickly as we can with the little talent and experience we have in the department.
